I think that is a very helpful response. Especially the part about ’seeing yourself as an attacker just because you confront issues’. As a self confessed neutoric I beleive I try to ‘understand’ the person because what they say and how they act are worlds apart. I find my head beleives one part and my heart believes the other, hence judge actions not intensions….. I’m getting there

When someone gives what appears a rational explanation (rationalizes) for behavior (e.g., “my parents fought and I don’t want that in my life”) that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ve given you all (or possibly even the primary reason) for the motivation behind their behavior. Besides, when it come to reckoning with behavior and developing one’s character, the “reasons” for a behavior are irrelevant. If a behavior presents a problem, it needs to be corrected.

Also, be careful about using the term “defensively” when describing how people react. This implies either that another person has actually attacked the person or that the person at least perceives that another has attacked them. Seeing yourself as an attacker simply because you confront issues is a sure way to eventually succumb to manipulation tactics.

Neurotics try way too hard to “understand.” The person dealing with a disturbed character does not need “insight” into their behavior, and the disturbed character already has insight. Trying to “understand” too much inevitably fosters “enabling.”

Lastly, there are two kinds of fighting: constructive and destructive. Sometimes we need to stand up for a noble cause or principle, provided we do so with discipline and without malice. Such fighting is often constructive. Fighting for only something we want and without care about the impact on others is almost always destructive.

They think it’s okay primarily because it often works in getting them what they want and secondarily because they don’t have any inner apprehension arising out of conscience propelling them to do otherwise. They only give up on the tactics when somebody finally has their number so to speak and they’re no longer able to manipulate successfully. Even then, they don’t really reconsider their preferred way of doing things. And they don’t try their antics on other disordered characters, either. They’re on the lookout for others who are neurotic enough for them to take advantage of.

But after a bit I started to think “well even when I’m up to in denial I know when I’m lying” and I used to challenge them. And eventually they’d tell the truth. But this could often take circular arguments/ongoing discussions. Not worth the hassle. I still don’t get why they think it’s okay.

- Marie

I do remember vacillating from “If I could understand him better, then I will be able to help him see the need to move beyond, suspicions of me and the guys at work and neighbors and depression, hate of others, worship of his abused and stoic mother, spite toward his father, and doubts about my love for him…..”.etc,

and then the other side, “Oh his behavior does not compute. Therefore, I will stick with what does make sense, with people who do respond to love, and what gives me satisfaction, raising my kids, socializing with the neighbors over holidays, and working part time or full time or not at all, etc.”

Devastating to me was to realize that it was true, he would not change so I had to save myself, it was that bad.

Doing much better. Very happy with outcomes, even with the hardships presented since my changes.