“Egocentric Thinking Patterns of Disturbed Characters” Comments, Page 1
You are currently browsing page 1 of comments on the article Egocentric Thinking Patterns of Disturbed Characters.
You are currently browsing comments. If you would like to return to the full story, you can read the full entry here: “Egocentric Thinking Patterns of Disturbed Characters”.
31 Responses (Including 10 Discussion Threads) to “Egocentric Thinking Patterns of Disturbed Characters”
-
Mia1
Dr. Simon, I want to thank you for these posts, they do provide understanding into the odd minds of the disordered. I do have some questions.
Can a person such as the one described here, attribute their egocentrism to chemical imbalance in the brain at all? Does the Psych community treat these disordered people or all disorders, with directness, or does the professional community see these as ‘ill’ people who need sympathy.
I’ve had this basic question on my mind.
I don’t feel sorry at all for these people.And are all character disordered individuals chemically imbalanced?
I guess I’m concerned that if all of this ends up being excused because of a ‘Disease’ concept, then who could hold accountable one of these individuals.I’m from the old school. No, alcoholism is not a physiological disease. And yet I do understand predisposition. That is another topic as regards alcoholism, but I guess I’m seeing a lot of things being excused with, ‘well he’s sick’.
My ex is not in a right mind, due to schiz, not egocentrist thinking, but I held him accountable for his actions. If he commited a murder, he could get a ‘ not guilty by reason of insanity’ plea with a doctors evaluation confirming his disorder, correct?
Because he was ambivalent after I confronted him with what I knew about his indiscretion, I made arrangements to move out, and until I was out, I registered my situation with the domestic violence group and submitted his gun to police in my area in case anything happened. They could not, would not tell me if he could get violent.
I was on the phone with them many times, being unsure of his state of mind when he came home from work or came to bed. Would he hear noises or think he should DO more to Protect me from whatever? Was he going to express his doubts and suspicions about me again and then have it escalate?
Though I consider the breakup of a marriage very unfortunate, I feel very fortunate to be free now, from this.
-
Dr George Simon, PhD2
Hi, Mia
While certain conditions with a strong biochemical basis (e.g. genuine bipolar disorder, mania, hypo-mania, etc.) can either exacerbate or cause ego-centrism and ego-inflation, for the most part egocentric thinking is a matter of a failure to learn and internalize pro-social values. We all start out life thinking that we’re at the center of the universe and even infants think that the others in their world exist purely to tend to their needs. Gradually, most of us grow out of this tendency as we learn about social order and our place in a social world. Some of us don’t mature very well and most of the reasons for this have to do with what we learn or fail to learn about how to balance our own wants and needs with those of others. I do think however, that there are some individuals naturally endowed with both a strength of will and a sense of self-assuredness that interferes with their parents’ and society’s attempts to socialize them as they are growing and learning.
-
Bradley Griffin2.1
I think its funny that right from the get go you decide to say “they don’t think the way we do”. It shows that you have clearly taken extreme caution against painting yourself into a corner and free of choosing sides.
Furthermore, I think that as you continue to say “When the disturbed character wants something, he doesn’t think about whether it’s right, good, legal, or whether his pursuit of it might adversely affect anyone — he only cares that he wants it. His incessant concern for himself and the things that he desires creates a pattern of thinking which embodies an attitude of indifference to the rights, needs, wants, and expectations of others.” It is this behavior that has clearly made possible the rise of an entire species. It is this exact definition that one could also use to describe many of the more successful men and women across the globe. Men and women, such as politicians, that have made the laws, that you are so quick to point out, that “they” have broken.
Let me be honest when I say, it isn’t your research or even the topic you are posting about that bothers me. It is primarily your over use of infinitives and your inability to write impartially that really gets me going.
Raising yourself above someone else. Or worse, an entire class of people. As if to say, “I am better than you!” Please, if you get a chance, Sir, come down from your high post and tell me how you really feel.
-
Dr George Simon, PhD2.2
Hi, Bradley.
I regret that you have apparently not familiarized yourself with the rest of my writings or perhaps missed the gist some of the other articles. Indeed, some of those articles make the exact same points you are making, especially about how some of the traits civilized society now regard as problematic have actually been instrumental in the survival of our species.
I do not equate the very real “differences” in attitudes, thinking patterns, and behaviors between individuals of various personality and character types with a judgment of their relative “inferiority” or “superiority.” Problems occur when a person’s patterns of thinking or relating stymie their own success and/or bring unnecessary pain or harm to others and are destructive vs. constructive in relationships.
-
-
Megan3
My family and I are dealing with a Egocentric thinker but at whole I believe you could classify him with several of your posts on disturbed characters. He will be really happy for weeks at a time and take us out to dinner and have a great time and then when we get home, he is down right mean and nasty because of all the money he is wasting and his bills and how hard he works.
To give you a bit of background, he is my step-father. My mom has been married to him for 3 years. He has 2 children from his previous marriage. I’m the oldest and I also have a younger brother. We all, including his children are at our wits end, trying to figure out how to deal with him. He tends to be more hard on my brother and I, even though I feel we are more balanced than his children. We have tried talking to a counselor and it didn’t go over well because she was zoning in on him. We switched conselors and got one who didn’t really offer up any help or techniques to try.
So my question is, how do you level with someone like this? Are there books to read? What direction would you steer someone with a situation like mine?
-
Bradley Griffin3.1
“I regret that you have apparently not familiarized yourself with the rest of my writings or perhaps missed the gist some of the other articles.”
I’m sorry. I didn’t know it was up to me to read the entirety of your works in order to understand one piece of it. Clearly, this must be an error on my end due to me being the author of the piece and assuming the reader was well educated and versed in my literary compositions.
I was glad, however, to see that you explained that other writings you had done explained that the behavior seen as problematic were traits that were so important through an evolutionary stand point. As a matter of fact, most of your explanation this morning made me feel better about you on a grand scheme verses after reading the document last night. You took away the infinitives and stopped generalizing. You made more vague statements and more clearly defined the groups based on naming them, rather than saying “they” or “we”.
-
-
Dr George Simon, PhD4
Hi, Megan. While I can’t really give direct advice regarding any specific situation, I might say that from what you describe it sounds like there are other issues involved that might be contributing to unhealthy family “dynamics.” Has the family sought a skilled family therapist? Such a therapist likely wouldn’t “zone-in” on one family member and would certainly have some techniques to offer to enhance communication skills.
-
Liselotte de Wit5
Dear Dr. Simon,
Thank you for your online information about disturbed characters. I was engaged and almost married to someone who was very controlling and manipulative in a covert way. Looking back there were many red-flags but I could only see them once I stepped out of the situation, the pieces of the puzzle are now slowly coming together. I can give you many examples of how he tried to maintain a position of power over me without me realising what he was actually doing. I think it’s important to know that when a man is exhibiting these behaviors, he is not DEFENDING (i.e. attempting to prevent some internally painful event from happening) but that he is in fact primarily on the OFFENSIVE trying to ensure that something he wants to happen does indeed happen.
He was extremely good at making me feel guilty, he challenged my viewpoints and made me feel ignorant and naive. He told me I was confrontational, he shifted the blame on me, he told me to lower my voice in an argument, he refused to stay topical and gave me the ’silent treatment’ when I asked him for example to be clear on where we stood. What is truly confusing is that alle these things don’t happen in one week, it’s a slow proces (the relationship lasted for 3 years) and he was capable of making me feel very good AND very bad at the same time. I knew something was wrong but I just couldn’t get my head around it.
Here are some personality traits, behaviors and quotes:
My ex believes homosexuals have chosen to be homosexuals, he thinks ‘they read it in a magazine’ and if they really wanted to they could become heterosexual. The evidence of any biological determination (genes, prenatal environment) simply bounces off his hardened position. When I asked him what he would do if we ever had a child who turned out to be homosexual, he said that I had probably encouraged it. When I got upset he laughed and said that he just liked to throw oil on my fire.
I asked him why we had to make our vows in a church even though he defends evolution and the non-existence of God in a very harsh way. My ex is an atheist (just like his father) and was capable of making one of his friends in a discussion on that matter actually BURST INTO TEARS (until this day I have no idea what he said to upset him so much). He told me the reason for getting married in a church was “Because it’s what my mother would want me to do and because it’s traditional, why no one knows”. Then something incredibly ironic happened; when he told his mom we were going to get married in a church it turned out she never had any expectation of this kind considering my ‘background’. He told her off; “Now don’t you start too”.
A very good “friend” of him, B, had not been in a relationship for a long time but he recently met a woman. They had been together for 3 months when she found out she was pregnant. B. wanted to talk to my ex about it, or at least share his story. His girlfriend wanted an abortion but B. wasn’t sure. My ex listened, wished him good luck and when he left I said to my ex that I could see that B. was in despair. He looked at me and cynically said: “Don’t be so naive, B. is only interested and keen because she’s pregnant and that makes him feel good about himself. As soon as she has the abortion, he will leave her.”.
According to my ex the looting of the blacks in New Orleans during the hurricane Katrina, just showed their ‘bad immoral mentality’ compared to the virtuous people from California who were willing to help each other in putting out the fires around their villas.
One weekend we were invited to a rented farm out in the countryside by my best friends. This was supposed to be a nice relaxing break but it turned into a nightmare. There were 8 other people and the first evening everyone got very drunk and my best friend had hit a nerve with my ex by saying that he had done a great job in getting me to marry him because I would be the last person anyone would ever expect to get married… This lead into a discussion; another friend explained why to him the relationship with his partner was far more important than ‘getting married’. Alastair got up, pointed at him and said: “This means that I WON and YOU LOST and that YOUR CHILD IS A B******”.
He later on said ’sorry’ to me (he had no recollection of anything that happened that night) but when I suggested not to apologise to me but to my friends he claimed: “Why would I, you always brag about freedom of speech, but when you tell someone the truth they are offended”.
My ex trained for and ran the Belfast marathon. He told me his parents (who live in Belfast) did not come to watch him and that he didn’t know anymore what he had to do to impress them (kinda weird: 33 year old army Major still wanting approval… but then again; his parents didn’t blink an eye, that’s strange too).
My ex asked me to explain to him why I wanted to do a master in Health Sciences (i’m a nurse) and if I thought it was going to ‘financially benefit’ us.
One evening when I phoned him he said he had been talking to his brother about the issues his brother and his girlfriend had at the time. He finished the story by saying; “But hey… my brother’s just like me, in the end he always gets what he wants”…
Being an army officer he said that no corporal ****nuts was ever to call him by his first name. I told him that although I understood that in the army it is not common to address each oter familiarly I thought it was rather disrespectful to call a corporal a ****nuts because in the end he’s the frontline soldier who actually gets killed in a war. He looked at me (his eyes became black, I’m not exaggerating) and said: “If you think doctors speak differently about nurses, you’re ignorant. In their eyes you’re a NURSE ****NUTS tooâ€.
The list goes on and on… I realise I’ve just had a lucky escape. Again, thank you for the online information. I hope my examples will get other people to thoroughly think through their own relationship.
Liselotte
-
Amy Gentry6
I have reaad the article and comments with interest. I too, am an RN and wondering if we attract this type of person. I got involved with a man who seemed so sweet and endearing and generous and as the relationship evolved, the whole theme became about what he wants, and over. He became very volatile in his moods and anger and seemed to be obsessed and when I expressed my needs for distance and space, they were ignored, in fact he became more insistent. I have asked him not to contact me in no uncertain terms, but he has begun again, with no understanding, except for what he wants. I have even moved to another state, and have begun a new relationship, a sane one. Will this ever end, could he be dangerous? He has been involved with drugs in the past. I have a counselor I am seeing, but it doesn’t keep the fear from pervading.
-
Dr George Simon, PhD6.1
Persons with all types of character disturbance are keenly aware of the characteristics possessed by normal “neurotics” that might make them easy prey. So, after scoping out your needs and vulnerabilities (which they usually do in very short order) they know just what to do to seduce. Counseling is an excellent opportunity to learn more about your innermost wants, needs, and sensitivities that could not only make you more vulnerable but also might even “attract” you to the wrong personality type.
The level of potential dangerousness of disturbed characters is very difficult to assess accurately. Research shows that generally clinicians are extremely poor at this task and even our empirical methods are weak. That said, some disordered characters are so affronted by the prospect of “losing” that they’ll try anything to avoid it and the most dangerous times are those when losing in fact appears eminent. It’s always good to have a safety plan.
-
Liselotte de Wit6.2
Hi Amy,
yes.. i’m a registered mental health nurse and couldn’t figure it out… only when I stepped out of the situation I could clearly see what had hit me. It’s a nightmare to be with such a person, I had developed heart arrhythmias and for quite a while my self-esteem was very very low.
Do your think your ex is a narcissist? Do you think he has anything to loose, because if so, he wil do the calculation and probably won’t harm you. He loves to make you scared, and if you show him you are, he has ‘won’. Don’t speak to him unless absolutely necessary and ignore him if / when you can. I hope you will feel better soon and that he leaves you alone!
Regards,
Liselotte
-
-
Amy Gentry7
Dear Dr. Simon,
Thank you for your reply. You hit the nail on the head about him finding my vulnerabilites. I do have a safety plan, texting friends or calling who have all his information as he states he is coming my direction. There are no threats, so nothing to warrant a restraining order which I feel might inflame him more. I had to use my own resources. I wish more people were aware of character disorders. Maybe we are, but it’s the perverbial train we never saw coming right at us. Thank you again. Somehow I feel safer with the knowledge you gave me.
-
Liselotte de Wit8
Wow! Bradley Griffin sounds exactly like my ex…
-
Dr George Simon, PhD8.1
I worded my reply carefully, though I thought briefly about addressing the tactics, especially “leveling.” So glad you all are so perceptive.
-
Bradley Griffin8.2
“Wow! Bradley Griffin sounds exactly like my ex…”
I suppose you can manipulate most things to see what you wish to see…
This isn’t so much about “leveling” as it was about your writing style. Like I said when I first began, I am not attacking your research or the thought that went into it. I just didn’t like how you began making it out as an “us vs. them” kind of mentality.
To some degree, Liselotte de Wit has already attempted to do so, there is a feeling that I am positioning myself as the egocentric thinker. However, I ask, is it not completely the opposite by not accepting the dominant beliefs of the group? “It’s true because ‘we’ believe it.” Is my stance not the opposite of innate sociocentrism, which is a characteristic of egocentric behavior. To this point, I would argue that Liselotte more correctly fits the bill as someone you would lump into the “they”. Can I get your opinion on that, Dr?
Further, by attacking me to keep her status elevated, it could be thought that she is also exhibiting innate wish fulfillment or easier stated “It’s true because I want to believe it.” Making sure she positions me, and her ex, into a negative light with her comment so that she has no blame in anything that is happening. Trying to hold tightly to whatever puts her in a positive light.
-
Dr George Simon, PhD8.3
Bradley,
There is far more in your comments than merely a critique of my writing style. Further, the other things that are there are so glaringly obvious that virtually no one could miss them or misinterpret them. Because you are obviously bright and because these things are so obvious, I would have a hard time believing that you don’t see them. It’s more plausible that you are simply comfortable with them. I think that’s why persons like Marianna eventually express the sentiments she did, not because she is one of the “better” group, but because disengaging from such things brings such relief.
This is my last comment on the subject. I choose to disengage also.
-
-
Liselotte de Wit9
Masters of Denial
“Personality disorders are ego syntonic: individuals believe that the drama, self-absorption and other traits that characterize their condition are reasonable responses to the way the world is treating them.”
by Jeffrey Kluger, 2003
-
Bradley Griffin9.1
A well stated and designed answer by Jeffrey Kluger for the definition of ego syntonic. I will give you credit for at least having the ability to research material that is well constructed. Coming up with your own original thoughts, that has something left to be desired. However, that being said, I’m really not sure what you are trying to impose with this definition. You lack a few of the stages of critical thinking development such as, clarity or precision. Please, can you elaborate further or be more specific and give me an example of what you are trying to say with Jeffrey’s definition.
While you are at it, please consider the significance of what you are trying to say. Meaning, is projecting yourself outward on me and attacking me for trying to better understand the article really what is important. If so, after considering its perhaps yourself with the internal issues, please feel free to keep your proposed argument. Try to keep it relevant and explain to me how this helps us with the issue.
My general understanding with you, up to this point, is that for some reason you continue to surround yourself with these types of people. My question to you is this, “Is it that you continue to surround yourself with these types of people or are you the person projecting yourself onto them through your own subconscious.”
One last sliver of thought:
Your brain is programmed and conditioned to operate the way that it does from years of conditioning from external sources. ( Your parents, your education and your environment just to name a few.) By rejecting or becoming defensive of logical arguments proposed through sound reasoning you are simply showing that you have a scotoma to the issue. Or more simply, a blind spot in your ability to see what I am talking about. This inability leads you to believe there is something wrong with the way I am speaking to you rather than to question your own beliefs. So like I said previously, maybe its an internal issue vs the entire world ganging up on you. What do you think…?
Please Dr., feel free to re-engage and share if you feel I have “again” obviously riddled my statements with error or confusion. Like you stated before, I carefully am selecting that which i say. I see what I am saying as sound and backed with explanation and logic. I am simply freeing my explanations of emotion…which can often times cause those pesky scotomas I briefly threw into the mix. I am open minded to hearing an opinion to the contrary as long as it is also backed with logic and reason. Simply stating you feel a certain way and attaching a reason of “because I feel like its true” doesn’t actually make it so. Similarly, by seeking out a definition meant for something entirely different doesn’t create a sound argument. I did congratulate her for being able to find it. Its intended use, however, is still a mystery.
-
-
Liselotte de Wit10
Hello again,
Who do you mean by “these types of people” I surround myself with? Who is lumping who into the ‘they’ now? Based on what do you assume that I “continue to surround myself” with these types of people? Your inability to write impartially really gets me going…
To answer your question: During the relationship and even when we broke up, for months I asked myself what was wrong with ME, what my issues were.
I now wish I had NOT rationalised my intuition or feelings and I wish I had NOT questioned my own beliefs. The very controlling and manipulative behaviour of my ex were shocking and bewildering. He had a way of diverting me and of arguing against me so relentlessly that there was no way to resolve anything with him. The stress of trying to avoid further assaults, while not understanding why they occured in the first place, eventually took a physical toll. I suffered because I found no words to explain the inexplicable.
Just as we depend on others for community and the exchange of ideas and information, we need someone to understand and validate our own experience, especially if it was very confusing. With the help of my psychologist (and professional informative websites like this one) I found validation and was finally able to dissect the painful events. In doing so I am not ganging up together with my psychologist against my ex (me vs you mentality), I instead seek assurance that my reality is real. I now know that his behaviours are the direct result from egocentric thinking patterns and that he has in fact a disturbed character.
The reason why you remind me of my ex Bradley, is because you use the exact same undermining tactics to criticise, judge, trivialise, accuse and blame. You ask rethorical and prosecutorial questions and deny at the same time your criticism. By saying that you’re freeing your explanations from emotions and by implying that I am unable to back up my opinion with logic and reason you strive to affirm your superiority and rightness. The funny part in this is that you do it in such obvious ways (pesky scotomas, wow..) that no one here could misunderstand what’s really going on. My ex was more subtle about it.
As for the Jeffrey Kugler quote: YOU ARE IN DENIAL of your own egosyntonic blind spots. But there’s hope; somewhere on a subconscious level you know that your reasonable responses full of logic and free of emotion aren’t really doing the job. You’re fighting that awareness by posting long devaluing comments, but hey, at least you’re still fighting. It’s when you become indifferent that all hope for knowing the truth is lost.
-
Dr George Simon, PhD10.1
Hi, Liselotte. I’ve enjoyed reading your comments. I did want to offer something for your consideration, however. I’ve long been struck by the inherently contradictory assumptions that some individuals find their attitudes, core beliefs, thinking patterns and patterns of interacting ego-syntonic yet are “in denial.” Denial is a primitive but powerful UNCONSCIOUS mechanism by which the ego is protected by emotional pain too great to bear. So the classical supposition has always been that the individuals you describe would be in be awash in a sea of guilt, shame, anxiety and anguish if they would ever allow themselves “see” (i.e. become conscious of) the harsh reality of their ways.
After years of doing the kind of work I’ve done, I implore my workshop attendees to consider the notion that “They already SEE, they simply DISAGREE. That is, they’re not blocked from a conscious awareness of how they think or what they do (or its impact). AND, they know how others look upon these things. They simply like their ways and feel entitled to do just as they do. Even more important, to INTERNALIZE the values they know others want them to adopt requires them to submit themselves and subordinate their wills to a perceived higher entity.
Sometimes, when we confront someone on their behavior and they “deny” or twist the reality of what they’re doing, it’s a tactical move as opposed to denial (even though it appears to us that they “just don’t see”). I have a post on this – what “denial” is and isn’t and why it’s one of the most frequently misapplied terms in mental health. Once you “have the number” of the type of individual you describe, they automatically loose “position” or tactical leverage with you, which is what their entire interpersonal “game” is all about: POSITION. So, what looks like “denial” is really a tactic to regain position and to manage the impression of others to the point that they no longer feel like you have them read correctly. Once you start doubting, they regain position.
Now, I know my take on this is not mainstream (it never has been) but it is shared by some others and is becoming more accepted every day. In fact most of our traditional assumptions about the underlying dynamics of some personality types (e.g., “bullies” being “cowards” or persons with low self-esteem “underneath”) are being shown to be significantly flawed by the best new research.
By the way, I think you have the “fighting” part absolutely right except that I don’t think the “fight” is with “awareness.”
-
Newer Comments »