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166 Responses (Including 33 Discussion Threads) to “Over 1000 Reader Comments and Questions on ‘Losers’ and Personality Disorders”
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Diane101
Hi Connie,
Have you read the Stockholm Syndrome article yet?
You should if you haven’t.It is hard to understand it really I so understand that. It’s
been hard for me to learn about what is really going on and I live it. Gosh my heart goes out to you and your son. I wonder if you might send emails just once in awhile that says how’s it going…just thinking about you. So at least he knows you there in the distance. Wow she really broke all ties with you guys. Did something else happen earlier on or during the break ups? Gosh its all so heartbreaking. Thank you for your concern about my life situation. I am telling you it is so hard to detach from a PD and scary. They are so crazy and unpredictable. If you ever need talk just post. I would be going nuts if one of my sons did that and was in one of these horrible relationships. Thankfully their girlfriends and I get along and I really love them a lot. My girlfrined just told me she is not allowed to see her grand daughter anymore since she lost it when her youngest started a fire in her home and she was 8 hours away and wanted her son to drive her home as she was so upset. Her home burned down completely in the fires in 2002 and so you can imagine how distraught she was. It is so sad because the daughter in law even goes to the same church and she does not even speak to her any more…not allowed anymore since that night. Her son still speaks to her but she was just crying her eyes out about it all. She does not ask her son to let her see him figures it would create more problems for him and does not want him in that position. It awful for her and she is so broken hearted. Another one of my friends told me weeks ago about their daughter-in-law doing the same as yours. Her son actually sneeks the baby over thankfully once in awhile as they are moved out of the state now. It is so sad. She has been a aide at our elementary school for K-2 then the preschoolers and everyone loves her. I was in shock when I found this out! All she could say to me is make sure your four boys can stand up for their selves. As I discussed It with my eldest he talked about a friend that is being abused right now in his relationship. Awful the guy is 6′2 and you never would guess he was being physically abused.She definately has PD. Its seems to be all about minimizing the damage of the paybacks whether its physical or not. At least that is what its been for me and I see it their relationships too sadly they still freak out/rage no matter what you do. It just weakens you down. The other ones I am not sure that that PD is the case.
Bless you, Diane
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Diane102
Hi Christina!
Yes, I am still in the same home.
It’s all very difficult trying to decide how to be in this place and stay well enough to move just about anywhere or do anything that used to be so easy to do.Gosh I am sorry that more has not been resolved in your divorce.
Wow…that is sad your attorney has not served you well in this very difficult break up. I keep you in my prayer’s always. Abuse sucks!Christine, I think it is a very big blessing that he does not ask about her. From what your history is you are very blessed indeed. Thank God you do not have to worry about her alone with him and his father. That is awful thought her being around him/them at all. Too much violence and bad influence for her to ever be in. Be blessed in that you can serve her best by doing all of the roles and know other mentors will be in her life that are healthy for her instead of him. I know its hard to realise and do all on your own. She is so much more protected by this fact.I hope you have gotten more support around you and caring new friends. How’s your new job going? Are you still in counseling?
Peace, Love an Joy,
Diane
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James103
EP,
“Asperger’s Syndrome (which some people might interpret as ‘Assholes Syndrome’).â€
I take offence of anyone so bluntly using the condition of “Asperser’s Syndrome†as “A-hole Syndromeâ€. Not sure what rock you crawled out from under but this syndrome affects children and families. There is no know cure for Asperser’s Syndrome so public knowledge is the only sure way of detecting it in our children as soon as possible. These parents and social/school officials then must work with the child to insure they received the therapy and treatment to deal with this Syndrome. That they received every chance to live a normal and long life as any child. I not sure what you suffer from and don’t care but I would ask you to refine from making light of this and every emotional and psychological disorder/Syndrome and many suffer from.
As for me personally, please don’t reply for I am done with any poster who feel’s it’s funny to show so little compassion and insight into the suffering of others.
Oh, one other thing, you spelled Asperser’s Syndrome wrong. Ever hear about “spellcheckerâ€?
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James104
Update:
“I not sure what you suffer from or don’t but I would ask you to refine from making light of this and every emotional and psychological disorder/Syndrome and many suffer from.”
incomplete sentence should beâ€
I not sure what you suffer from or don’t “care” but I would ask you to refrain from making light of this and every “other” emotional and psychological disorder/Syndrome “that†many suffer from.
Sorry :(
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E P Campbell104.1
Hi James
Interesting what hits a raw nerve in some people, especially when it’s misinterpreted and over-reacted to. Read between the lines- and the whole context. Join up the dots my friend……..
What I meant by a generic ‘A-Hole’ in this instance was the tragic way people often ‘brand’ and mistreat a person suffering from a condition which is frequently undiagnosed. So they are punished for being ‘different’ or ‘a show off’ or ‘bizarre’ or ‘a weirdo’. You missed the ironic, self-flaggellating reflection completely buddy.
What’s new, in my experience?
I’ve had this all my life and thank you for your input.
Profuse apologies for the typo. Damn this dyslexia…
Have a nice day James, and get a life away from a computer +)
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Wendy104.2
Hi James and E.P.,
James, to the best of my knowledge, it’s spelled “Asperger’s Syndrome”.
E.P., I’ve put a reply to your Asperger’s-related post back there on page 10. I wish this forum didn’t have the new “threaded” format, because it’s a bit confusing! But that’s probably the least of our worries. :)
Take care, all,
~~Wendy
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E P Campbell105
Hi Wendy.
I like your intelligence and clear intuition. You are right of course in correctly flagging my lop-sided approach to my rocky relationship and I absolutely agree with you in essence. Everyone should take responsibility for their actions, behaviour and treatment of others. It’s called respect. Self, mutual and of others.
However, as we all know, every relationship has its compromises and I am willing to accept a great deal of her ‘bad behaviour’ if she is willing to accept my inadequacies.
All said and done, we should never allow ourselves to be anyone’s whipping boy. However good the cause may appear to be because otherwise we destroy respect in and for both parties.
The trickiest part is negotiating a pathway through the other person’s manipulative behaviour and making them aware of what is commonly accepted as clearly a moment of weakness (like shouting ‘damn’ when you drop a hammer on your foot) and what is clear abuse, “Get out of my life, you useless, cold, weak, uncaring, ugly S.O.B.,” when we step out of line in their book. Moments before they swore undying love and total admiration. Confused? Aren’t we all?
By the way, she has just had the dog put down, sadly. An 11 year old rescue Westie starting to have regular ‘epileptic’ type fits lasting up to half an hour. The dog was taken to a vet and ‘put to sleep’ this morning after I left for work, at 6.30am. Around 11am without my knowledge or ability to intervene. I got a tearful fait accomplis phone call to say he was ‘gone’. Personnally, I would have happily stood the phenyl barbitone for the fits but wasn’t given the option.
Last night I drove the 33 miles to be wth her because the dog had another fit. I, once again am persona non grata for commenting via her text exchange this morning that he was, due to her failure to take out pet insurance ‘a potential bottomless pit’. Financially threatening, as we are both struggling with new businesses. I didn’t even get the chance to say goodbye to my whacky little friend. Now I’m back in the bad books again. I was called ‘Hitler’, (who incidentally cared more about his pet Alsation ‘Blondie’ than 6 million Jews).
Walt Disney has a lot to answer for in over-sentimentalising animals – like Bambi. I’m afraid that, with pets, what starts off as a cute little ball of fluff in a few years can often end up as a sick old friend costing us thousands we didn’t factor into the equation when Fido arrived. I’m afraid I regard keeping domestic pets as a form of emotional slavery. People even try it with wolves until the ‘cute little pup’ tears a lump out of them! (200,000 abandoned ‘domesticated’ wolves in the USA alone in the last 10 years – you can’t change nature Dorothy). I believe we humans have distorted animals existence to the point where we have lost track of instincts and reality, purely for our own selfish needs. Very tempted to become vegan and help save the planet! Sorry about the soap box, folks!
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James106
Wendy, regardless on the spelling but to me what is “confusing” is how a statement by an “known” person who themselves suffer from this Syndrome referred to it in a malicious way. Also one thing that the poster didn’t state is one characteristics of the Syndrome is the lack of empathy by know suffers. Both PD (Personality Disorder) and Asperger’s Syndrome share this personality trait.
Another know fact is many people who were never treated as children for the Syndrome have been know to develop a personality disorder as well. The reason? Well reading and researching on the subject will of course give the reader(s) yet more information.
One last thing Wendy, self-diagnosing is best avoided and these things should be done by professionally trained psychologist not by lay person and/or the person themselves. Self-diagnosing oneself can and often does more damage then good.
Oh, one last time for the hearing impaired
I personally will ignored any future replies comment(s) and/or inquires concerning EP.
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E P Campbell106.1
And I suffer from Tinnitus too, James…What’s that you said…? Dag nab it, must find my hearing trumpet, old friend. Speak of the devil… where did I leave my teeph…? :-S
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Wendy106.2
*grin*
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E P Campbell106.3
Laugh? I nearly fell over my walking stick!
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Wendy107
Hi E.P.,
I’m so sorry to hear that you have both suffered the loss of the little dog, to top off everything else. Gee whiz – it’s high time for something happy to happen!
I like your views about mutual respect, and about compromises. It is, indeed, a thorny path sometimes, as we learn to form and then to articulate our ideas about human relationships (and those of us in difficult relationships end up doing a lot of that!).
One of the hardest things is that those who manipulate us often seem to force us into positions where our own behavior (even if we are not “Hitler”) causes us to question whether we, ourselves, have a personality of psychological problem. But your analysis of what constitutes abuse (not the expletive we utter out of temper, but the sudden bitter denigration, without apology) provides a good guideline when assessing these situations.
Most of us have reconciliation skills which involve body language (obvious contriteness, offered hugs), verbal apologies, and various spontaneous approaches that smooth things over after a difficult moment or a misunderstanding. However, those with personality disorders neither offer nor understand reconciliation. They cannot trust, which is the saddest thing.
Keep in touch – you have a lot of your own insight that you can contribute! I always remind myself that for the 5 or 10 people contributing to this forum at any given time, there are hundreds of others reading and learning.
Take care,
~Wendy
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E P Campbell107.1
Thanks Wendy
As far as Asperger’s is concerned I pretty much fit the bill from early infancy but I won’t bore you with all the details… folks might be listening…?
I really appreciate your kind words and encouragement. It is very difficult for someone like me to find a suitable partner because my life’s accomplishments do not reflect either my IQ or academic ability.
Raised in a religiously exclusive ‘church’ which sets itself apart from ‘the World’ of everyday reality and people. Wandering outside the ‘organisation’ is seen as spiritual death and means social shunning. So my experience of friends and potential partners was severely self-limited during my teenage years and by the time I got into my twenties I was set in an ‘apart’ mould, even though I no longer associating. The power of brainwashing. Potent and often lasting a lifetime with those connected. Also moving away from the faith is seen as a form of ’suicide’. So from their point of view I am a ‘dead man walking’.
I am trying very hard to make amends regarding turning round my life (having lived with 3 tons of possessions in a 1 bedroom flat (in three different cities over 16 years).
“OH, BY THE WAY JAMES, THAT’S CALLED O.C.D. COLLECTING!”
I had a rolling nervous breakdown leading up to my ex-wife leaving me in the last bad property recession, here 1992-3, and taking our two infants. I was confined to the settee for most of the final 2 years and when she departed I suffered a complete nervous breakdown, as I had lost everything: my work, my home, my wife, my 2 kids and my self respect. A kind neighbour came around and asked me how I felt. I said, “If you can imagine what it’s like to have an arm and a leg ripped off…?”
Then I was embroiled in a never ending bi-polar war over contact (usually frustration and denial or ignoring of Contact Orders obtained in the County Court through barristers – total waste of time and stress). In this country ‘possession is 90% of the law’ – I expect it applies equally in the States?
My ex-wife was like a dog with a bone – even if she didn’t particularly love or want kids she sure as hell wasn’t going to let me see mine without grovelling on my hands and knees. Meanwhile, she has led a settee busting, snacking, TV watching, lifestyle and has ballooned to 300lbs with 2 DVTs, one for each blocked leg. So now she is a self made cripple – with a terminal attitude problem.
My kids to their credit have ignored most of her bitterness but they still have to share a life with a very reclusive, permanently depressed mother who refuses to help herself.
I have given up buying and running cars for her because I always end up getting kicked in the teeth. 80,000 miles driving in 9 years with all the costs of a 250+ miles round trip every fortnight. Still, I am a ‘bastard’ – that’s made crystal clear to the children every time I call. My son is captain of the basketball team at school and top of his class in maths.
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Wendy108
Hi Connie and Diane and Christina and Ann!
Sorry I haven’t said hi in a while … nothing much is new concerning my own saga, happily. Late last year my former friend, a year and a half after the “bomb dropped”, sent me an email as if nothing had ever happened, asking perkily why I had not replied to his messages on MSN Messenger. This was entirely facetious, as I don’t use the service and thus he could not possibly have left messages for me. Some months later he again emailed, breezily, and sent hugs and a couple of links to websites. I didn’t reply. Finally, about a month ago he sent a bitter email, carrying on about how I could possibly think he was such an evil man (I have never said any such thing) when members of a native community (whom he believes to have extrasensory powers) gave him such a “great welcome” when we attended an event on their reserve in 2004 (I think it was their polite way of tolerating him and keeping him contained). He then complained that I wasn’t qualified to make snap psychological diagnoses (I’d had the nerve at the end to suggest that the reason for his unending abuse of me might be depression, although ever since then he has complained that I called him a psychopath, which I did not) – but finally admitted that, “sigh”, I was entitled to my crazy opinion if I insisted, and that since he was a “psychopath” I probably didn’t think he “deserved” an answer.
So, I’ve cancelled that email account. Sucker that I am, every contact leaves me feeling disturbed, because it brings back so much emotional memory of the time when someone I trusted as a friend began (and never stopped) abusing me emotionally.
After all this time I can truly say that I don’t suffer from memories of him or residue of our odd relationship, except when he attempts to contact me, which I hope now I have prevented.
Connie – I’ve read a few accounts similar to yours in the “Ask the Psycholigist” section of this website. The chain of events is almost identical in each case. I think Diane’s advice is right on. It’s what Dr. Carver, who started this site, used to call “hanging on loosely” – making sure your son knows you are available, but keeping a safe distance so as not to give his PD spouse extra opportunities to stir things up. It does indeed sound like a case of Stockholm Syndrome in your son, but eventually he will realize that you make him feel good and safe, while his wife makes him feel bad and unsafe. Unfortunately, it’s impossible to know how long it will take. Read everything you can on the subject, and think positive thoughts! Post here as often as you like. We all know how this feels.
Diane – glad you are progressing with separating from your husband. I agree that you need to find a safe place to stay once you make the break. Take care of yourself! Keep us posted.
… I’ll say hi to Christina and Ann in my next post, as I’m running out of “characters available” …
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Connie108.1
Hi Wendy,
Thank you for your advice. I did read the Stockhom Syndrome article. I’ve showed it to my daughters and we all agree it’s amazing how much it sounds like my son’s behavior towards all of us. He has told us bits and pieces about what’s going on and it sounds like he has a BD spouse. Are there different degrees of this disorder? I just don’t want to be looking for an excuse for his behavior, but there doesn’t seem to be any other logical reason. I sometimes wish when she returned we just went back to the way things were regardless of how we felt about her and her treatment of him and the children. She mostly presented a pleasant face in front of us, although there were some incidents and “red flags” and lots of “drama” surrounding her. This site has been educational and helpful and I appreciate everone’s support.
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Wendy109
… Christina – I’m sorry, but I’m not surprised, that your former spouse is making the divorce procedure as difficult as possible. Your analysis that he is seeking a “lose-lose” result (willing to resort to anything just as long as you lose) is correct but very sad. I think the best approach, inside yourself, is to think – “well – we’ve established that this is sad. No more need to assure ourselves of that, or ponder the insanity of it all. As of now, it’s just a task that needs to be completed”. I’m sure you’ve already made great strides, even if you don’t see the, in keeping this situation from infesting you and your family’s life. Keep us posted on how things go.
Ann – glad you chimed in, and that your former spouse no longer harasses you. It’s always good to hear from those who’ve made it through!
Best wishes to all,
~Wendy
p.s., after all these years (met my PD friend in 2003) I’ve recently encountered one more likely PD as a customer, and one as an employer. I think I’ve successfully dealt with both of them, but the seeming ill-will of such people is always deeply disturbing. I’ll post more about them once I’ve gathered my thoughts.
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E P Campbell109.1
Hi Wendy
‘Lose – Lose’ scenario is also called, ‘Burning Down The House Around You’, or, ‘Dog in a Manger’. Add your own well-worn strawberry flavoured cliché.
For examples of both, see two old films, in scary black and white (the way our ex often sees the world): ‘The Fall of the House of Usher’, with Vincent Price. A classic, where a hidden mad person in the family haunts a creepy old American country mansion from behind secret passages until it eventually leads to the burning down of the house. Also see, ‘Rebecca’ with Lawrence Olivier where the new wife of ‘Manderlay’ is persecuted by the old maid because ’she’s not good enough for the master’, by Daphne Du Maurier. One of my favourites.
Some people (40-50% divorce rate in the modern/enlightened western world, plenty to choose from) feel that, “If I can’t have him/her, nobody on God’s earth is going to, ‘I’ll make sure of that, if it’s the last thing I doâ€.
Often the consequences are tragic for both parties because basic, pre-human, Darwinian behaviour is in play which overrules logic, maturity, religion and civilised behaviour. The Wonderful World of Oz goes bye-byes. They see it as resource denial, like the Wicked Witch of the West, Dorothy…
“I’ve put so much into this relationship – you’ve ruined it for me, you ungrateful s.o.b. – now it’s time for payback”!
Like, ‘Old Painless’, Jesse Ventura, with his ‘hose ‘em down’ minigun in ‘Predator’, all the legacy cave dweller instincts come to the surface in the form of a primordial survival ritual. They are locked into a prehistoric adrenaline rush and you, darling, are the genetically embedded trigger.
Yes folks, I’m afraid we’re all just high-functioning tree dwellers, like the great apes, when it comes to territorial disputes. So if you, the kids, the home, car or dog/goldfish is, in their mind, ‘their territory’, then it’s ‘game on’ folks in a raw-meat hunting expedition. The right to bear arms – and grudges. Who cares about vegans!
Absolutely no mystery here girls!
When push comes to shove, knuckles start scraping on the ground and the high-functioning brain checks out at the postal depot.
Why are so many millions of formerly ‘happy shoppers’ so surprised with the, “Why me”, deer in headlights routine?
Even if we as a species survive long enough to lug our petty squabbles out to reach the stars in thousands of years to come, because we’ve eaten the planet, we’ll still be dragging our 100 million year old Limbic system with us. Think, 3.3 billion years of Life Progress to get to this point. 3.2 millions years since Dr Louis Leakey’s ‘Lucy’ walked the planet, 150-160,000 generations ago, then add our ‘blink of an eye’ so called civilisations and life spans to it – don’t make a lot of hicksville evolutionary difference does it?
Intellect? Forget it.
He’s tired, frustrated and hungry ladies, he smells blood and he’s got a club!
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Wendy110
Hi E.P.,
Good Gosh, it can’t be that bad! (or can it…?)
Actually, aside from having a healthy old-time rant (I mean that in a good way), you’ve brought up a number of good points. The first one that comes to my mind is – yes! – I myself have been encountering these characters in movies and fictional tales quite a lot, and noticing them. And when you think about it, at least 50% of fictional tales (probably more) involve such an “impossible” person, because those with personality disorders have been creating most of our drama in real life, all through history.
I think you are also very perceptive in mentioning Vincent Price’s “The Fall of the House of Usher”. For those who have seen it, you will remember that it is CREEPY. It’s not a complicated film, almost childlike, but it inspires a cold-sweat-on-the-back-of-the-neck horror. No doubt other films fill the same bill. My point is, going back to all of our experiences with PD people, many of us, including myself, have found ourselves creeped out at some point. Why? Because the behavior of these people makes no sense to us, and somewhere within ourselves we realize that they may be capable of ANYTHING.
Looking back on my own experience, it’s also telling that I tolerated my former friend’s behavior for some significant time after I began encountering this feeling within myself. We really do try our best, don’t we? But we can also learn. I encountered an employer recently who gave me this same feeling after a few weeks on the job, and I was gone within 2 days without saying goodbye (I said goodbye to my paycheck, though).
I believe it is true that such people conduct their lives with such a sensation of constant threat _themselves_ that, yes, they do make decisions (if you want to call it that) with their limbic systems, i.e., the caveman brain. So, they lash out at the most unexpected times in the most extraordinary ways, and leave us stunned. To those with a personality disorder, everyone is a threat. We say they have no empathy. Well, would _you_ have empathy for an enemy?
However, I believe it would be a mistake to think that we _all_ operate this way. We all have limbic systems to serve us in a pinch, but most of us are secure enough to allow ourselves to be compassionate. Indeed, it is one’s limbic system that gives rise to that “creepy” feeling, which many on this forum have felt – and suppressed! So, the limbic system does not always win, even when it should.
Anyone interested in compassion as an instinct in the human species should read Our Inner Ape by Frans De Waal. Mr. De Waal refutes the idea that our relationship to warlike chimps predisposes us to be violent ourselves, and points to many examples of adaptive compassion in the animal kingdom, and the reconciliation behaviors of our other close relatives the bonobo apes (well, not to put to fine a point on it, but the bonobos have constant “make-up sex”).
Lots of food for thought, in any case!
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E P Campbell110.1
Hi Wendy!
Time to fess up – my name is Paul. No more anonymity.
You are what I would call ‘a real trooper’ and have a healthy sense of humour girl – a great credit to you. It helps keep us all sane. Not many people kill each other when they’re having a good laugh!
I first saw the ‘Usher’ film when I was a boy and as you say ‘”It creeped me out”. The other darker aspect of the story by American writer Edgar Allen Poe, was that the complimentary insanity of the two main protagonists was created by 5-6 generations of ‘inbreeding’. Poe had a lifelong struggle with drink and drugs and poverty, as a so-so successful writer, so he dwelt rather obsessively with the Dark Side of the Force. Many of his eccentric, creepy stories came from observations of real life. Like ours. As they say in Yorkshire, “There’s nowt as queer as folk and I’m not sure about thee”. ;-)
P.S.: I call my large kitchen knives ‘Norman’ (Bates) from the film ‘Psycho’. Now there was a guy with “Mother!” issues…
I have to admit that I am a Pessimistic Realist. I was brought up in a highly idealised, perfectionist religion and found to my horror that people within this hallowed society were far from perfect and sometimes far worse than the Mr Average when it came to being two faced hypocrites. Unfortunately my would-be hero, my dad, was as bad as they came – a real paranoid psycho. Aaah ‘home’.
At 83 his life is still being monitored by the elders and the police for what he has done to innocent others in the past, though after nearly 50 years he will never really face proper punishment. He also systematically destroyed the lives of all his 5 children, including me (apart from sending us all back to psycho-heaven, Belfast, from London, Ontario in 1958 after just 11 months, because he couldn’t handle a healthy society). Handing us the most dysfunctional behaviour and dereliction of parental duty as it is possible to imagine. So when I see such patterns in others it brings back bitter-sweet memories.
My simple conclusion about my partner is that due to her terrible childhood she too is going to be paranoid for the rest of her life and incapable of a normal relationship, no matter how episodically nice she tries to be. Regardless of the loving, normal atmosphere at the time she always makes her suspicions of me, her ‘partner’ very clear, enough to make me feel unsettled – even when she’s ‘wearing’ a smile.
As you say, the evidence is always there, capped by a complete inability to apologise for their bad behaviour or language. Indicative of a personality disorder which will always lead to discontent, a malicious backlash and bite you when your guard is down.
As far as the limbic system is concerned, we are all driven by it. The emotion-instinct inner dialogue which motivates most of our thoughts, decisions and actions. It can be healthy and mostly well socialised – best demonstrated in how much we put others first, keeping ourselves second. Or sick and self serving.
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