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134 Responses to “550 Reader Comments on Dr Carver’s ‘Loser’ Article”
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Deb60
Margaret – the friend analogy is amazing. Even just the one line says it so well – “reserve your friendship for someone deserving of it.” I need to take that to heart. I wanted my daughter to be friends with him – I still don’t know why and it makes for some arguments between us (because I want her to grow up to be a nice person and he did apologize?) or maybe because he was fun to have around – things weren’t bad all the time — he said he was happy when he was here - he’s going in the marines — and we’re at war. But mostly I think I’m blaming his parents for the way he acted, not so much him. They were unbelievable – I think back sometimes wondering were they for real??? His mom acted like she didn’t even like him (said he was just like his Dad) so then he lived with his Dad from age 14-17 who is maintaining 3 girlfriends at the same time, is bi-polar and is a control freak - grounding him for months at a time. The Dad took a dislike to my daughter for some reason and would always threaten that they “could never see each other again”, which added the Romeo & Juliet complex to all this. I’m still trying to figure it all out and I guess I’m not sure were totally done with him yet – they have been broken up for 6 months, but it has been only 3 weeks since he has tried to contact her.
Lisa - Since this whole episode with him - I kept thinking is he really a loser or am I just making him out to be to make my daughter feel better about dumping him? So what we did was print out a copy of the loser article – we went through and wrote in all the things her bf did to her under each of the 20 loser paragraphs. Then re-read once in a while when you feel weak. Sometimes you forget the bad parts and remember the good and this helps with that. I still have weak moments I think because I was attached to him as a Mom – he turned to me with most of his family problems and he called me when he ran away from home. He asked me for help to get my daughter back and apologized time and again and asked what can he do to make her like him again. Unfortunately, I was caught in the middle of it and she wanted no part of him anymore so maybe just by me answering his calls - I was giving him false hope.
Also – my daughter is dating/friends with someone that she said treats her much better than he did so she has her justification or whatever you want to call it. When you find someone new, you may look back on this too and be glad you got out when you did.
Also Margaret – about the new gf - I teeter between being glad he found someone so maybe he’ll shape up and finally be happy – to being a little annoyed that it took my daughter’s continuous hurt to help him be good to this new gf…why couldn’t he appreciate her- she was their for him through so much? It feels contradictory, but is that how you feel too? But then re-reading Mack and Wendy’s comments make me realize that he needs more help than anything I could ever do and the feelings I thought he had – he doesn’t I guess. I just wonder why, if he didn’t have feelings for her, he hung on so long. Even though I can’t figure it all out - unhealthy thinks differently than healthy and I need to remember that — so it gives me more peace.
Mack/Wendy/Margaret…Reading all your comments and getting answers to the questions I post is really helping me sort this all out My main question right now is – what should she do when we see him? (We’re taking Mack’s advice and doing our best to avoid him, but it will happen eventually). A while back we saw him walking in front of us, he turned - my daughter said hi – he hugged her. I thought it was sweet, she did not. I want her to be socially polite but she wants to ignore him. She said when she’s nice to him – he gets the wrong idea. What is your opinion? She’s over him so this seems to be my problem now and I’m getting the feeling I’m not giving her the right advice. Since he just got this new gf – does that insure that he won’t contact my daughter again since he seems so crazy over the new one? She’s seen him at the beach, but has escaped his radar so far. How does one keep the peace with this type of person? I need to detach - I want to feel indifferent but I don’t yet – what can I do?
And thank you Mack for the personality disorder info – it helps to read about that.
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Wendy59
Well-said, Margaret!
I think that when readers of this forum see that those who have been through these experiences have regained their equilibrium enough to be this articulate, it probably helps to give them hope!
It was I who mentioned chalking it up to experience. I didn’t mean to imply it was easy, though. I may be at the chalking stage now, but I sure wasn’t for some time after the whole thing hit the fan.
I didn’t actually have to practice “active detachment” in my situation, but instead used research to help me see the real picture (probably a form of the same thing). However, had ML lived in my community or had he tried to be interfering, active detachment would have been the only way.
And, to Morris:
I was very glad to read that you made the break successfully, and that you still have lots of support. Your story will give courage to other readers who are in a similar position. It’s very helpful to know that one is not alone. Keep us posted. -
58
To Lisa -do not try to maintain a friendship. There is no friendship with these people. They don’t have those feelings. You are trying to understand this within the context of your normal human emotions, but that isn’t how “losers” operate. He will only want a friendship if it benefits him, regardless of the cost to you. You, on the other hand, will be hurt again. Reserve your friendship for someone who deserves it. You don’t have to hate him but do not give away your empathy, kindness, and love. Those qualities are the essence of friendship, and qualities he simply does not understand, value or have. It’s hard to understand but that is how it is. Moreover, friendships are two way streets. What could you possibly stand to gain from a friendship with him? You are seeking affirmation from him that you are okay. He has done a good job on you. But he has also shown you who he truly is. You can’t put a polish on a sneaker.
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57
To Deb - re your question: “Does the loser become more adept at hooking each new gf “…I find that very interesting because I observed that my ex has done exactly that. It’s almost like he is getting better at his job as his continues to do it. (In my ex’s case, it is his job as part of his m.o. is living off women). I have seen an absolute refinement in his approach. Each woman has more money, a better lifestyle and he is getting more adept at what it takes to fit in…better dressed, more socially confidant, conversationally glib). It’s as if each new gf represents a step up the “corporate ladder”. Oddly enough though, I see a fall coming for him. In any case, I would be very grateful that your daughter confides in you. Keep her close and make her feel safe. The journey from loser to abuser is often a short, quick one. I believe that these people will eventually hurt someone, when they feel frustrated or entitled enough.
I also want to mention a previous comment where someone said “chalk it up to experience” . That is good advice but not realistic when you have been enmeshed. You have to practice “active detachment” constantly until you truly feel indifferent. That can take a long time, given the loser’s cunning and the victim’s vulnerablity. If it were easy to just “chalk it up to experience” it wouldn’t be a problem. You have to be on “detach guard” until you are certain you are emotionally safe. -
Lisa56
Hi Mack,
Thanks for your words of encouragement. I will definately take your advice. I do not want to get burnt. I just heard some really disturbing news about him. He is known to be a big player and likes to take married women on trips and then leave them once they come. No returning phone calls nothing. This just disgusts me. I wish I had seen this alot sooner. I feel that I was taken advantage of and my naiveness.I will keep your advice in mind.
Lisa
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Mack55
Hey Lisa, I understand that hurt and frustration. You kinda wish you’d seen it sooner and hadn’t felt as much and didn’t hurt as much and didn’t miss the sweet side as much… I hope eventually you’ll see what you felt as a sign that all your emotional parts are in good working order — but that unfortunately ‘normal’ and ‘abnormal’ people are not compatible.
I understand that detaching is hard, but it’s even harder when it’s only done half-way. I think it might have been Dr. Carver who gave this example once: when you touch a hot stove, and it burns you, you move away, right? If you want to heal, not only do you not touch the hot stove again while you’re healing; but you never touch the hot stove again — at all — because you know it will burn you. So the lesson is: if it burns you, move away. Allow yourself to heal and reconstitute your own life and sense of wholeness by not allowing the hot stove to burn you over and over and over again.He’s dropped you like a brick, but still expects to find you where he dropped you when he deigns to come back to the same spot. If he ever comes back — and mind you, he might not — you don’t have to be in that same place. You’re not, after all, a brick. You’re a sane person with legs. Fill your time rebuilding your life and interests, evaluating yourself and where you want to go, and thinking about the kinds of people who will support and not undermine that journey. If you really do want to detach from that guy, you’ll find you have support here. :-) You look out for yourself for a while.
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Mack54
To Deb: Maybe Dr. Carver can address these characters’ self-control… I’m not sure about it. My hunch is that no, they have no self-control insofar as they have a pattern of behavior and a mean-sweet cycle that they will always deploy to get what they want. The sweet part hooks the prey; the mean part finishes them off. But yes, they know how to hold it in until they’ve proven to everybody else that they’re the kindest and sweetest person ever, and are home alone with the prey. I would suggest they might adapt to each new prey: we’re all different, with different strengths and vulnerabilites, and, hence, different access points for people like this. But once they do find that access point, I think it’s the same old story.
The guy you’re talking about might not actually use it all on his new target — because that would involve being truly, genuinely considerate of her, and not just being eager to satisfy his desire to have someone… anyone… wait and pine for him. That’s just my hunch though.
A cracked cup can’t fix itself, so no, they don’t get better until they’re counselled thoroughly by someone familiar with the disorder and commit themselves to developing new patterns of thought, behavior, defense mechanisms, and social relating. They can and do manipulate people, even psychologists, who don’t know how narcissism operates. Dr. Carver has connected his “loser” label to narcissism and borderline personality disorders, but I’d prefer to let him comment more on that himself. -
Lisa53
Hi Mack/Wendy/Deb!
Thanks for your comments. I feel hurt and upset that this happened to me. I wasn’t expecting it from this individual because we had been friends for 2 years prior to the change to dating.
I just hate this silent treatment. I am in the process of deattaching but its hard. You miss the attention, the comfort and security that they provided.
But I guess I have to look at it in a long term sense.
Any suggestions on how to deal with the silent treatment? AND lack of contact on his part? (It’s like once your done your done and there is no more contact with me).
Should I do anything or just leave it? Should I try to maintain a friendship?
Thanks again,
Lisa
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Deb52
Btw - I meant Margaret, not Elizabeth, I’m sorry. And also, the reason I am having so much trouble with all this, is that my husband and I have been married for 27 years and neither of us have dealt with a personality disorder in our lives. Now we are watching our daughter grow up (she’s 16 now - 2nd year of high school) and although this was not her first bf - it was her most serious. She does confide in us alot and we just didn’t know whether to chalk it up to immaturity and learning about being in a relationship - or if it was something that could turn dangerous for her. Mentally, yes it was dangerous…I had a happy teenager that was being pulled into his problems, his families problems and just brought her down so much! He was such a charmer (especially in front of me) so you’d want to help him! And we could always talk ourselves out of his behavior as being needy, lonely, etc. And he is extremely smart in school so you wouldn’t think there was anything mentally wrong with him!
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Deb51
To Lisa – if it helps – my daughter is only 15 – but she even said that things just didn’t feel right. She couldn’t exactly put her finger on it at first – but she said for some reason, he just didn’t make her feel good. She loved his attention and him falling for her so fast and hard (he actually asked her to marry him someday and wanted her to wait for him for 4 years while he went into the marines). But then she just could’nt understand if he said he cared so much – why would he make her cry every weekend about some stupid thing. She also got the silent treatment when she wouldn’t do what he wanted. He would even put down parts of her body — and she’s a model! I read somewhere - a relationship should make you feel wonderful – if it doesn’t - get out.
To Elizabeth — and thank you Morris for including me in your comment. We too are just recently seeing the ex with a new gf - exactly the same extreme loving treatment as was given my daughter - within days of them meeting this time, not weeks. His heading under his new gf’s picture on myspace says “the solution to my problems”. Her myspace says “blessed - I found something good”. He has 25+ pictures of them on his website already. Who does that in a week??? Unfortunately, here is another young girl that is feeling SO special because he is falling all over her…we know the history, we know the pattern, we know the script — very hard to watch. It’s sad to me because I just don’t think there is any way a teenage girl cannot fall for the extreme attention and possessiveness . Although this is a sign of possible future abusive behavior…they feel it more as an ego trip that a great looking guy fell in love with them so quickly and is so extremely attentive - they feel lucky, their friends don’t have this, etc., etc.
To Mack/Wendy. Does the loser become more adept at hooking each new gf as I would think that these guys learn to hide their personality longer and longer since they know what works and what doesn’t with the last relationship so they can hide their disorder longer and hook the new person even more? Or do they not have that much self-control? That may be happening with my daughter’s ex as in his persistence to keep her, he wanted to know what parts of his behavior needed to change. He’s going to use it all on this new gf because he wants someone/anyone to wait for him when he goes into the marines. If the loser finds a more compatible partner – do they treat them better or is this a pattern they won’t break until they get counseling?
Is their a name for this type of personality disorder? Can it be caused by a bad childhood (which he had), or is it genetic? - his father was diagnosed as bi-polar. Also, keeping with our bizarre story - his Dad’s ex-gf sent me an article on Personality Traits of a Sociopath (as she saw these traits in both of them). Many of the traits in the loser article are similar to these type of traits. I still can’t believe what an impact this type of person can make on our lives!
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