Comments on “550 Reader Comments on Dr Carver’s ‘Loser’ Article”
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89 Responses to “550 Reader Comments on Dr Carver’s ‘Loser’ Article”
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Wendy40
Hi Deb,
I second everything that Mack said - and wow, she says it so well! I will add that it’s always hard to “fail” at something important, and you may feel that you have failed to help this boy - who is a fellow human being, after all, and worthy of help. Also, since you are a healthy person, you have a nurturing side, which is being thwarted by your lack of success. But unfortunately, this boy sounds like a bottomless pit, and the worst sign is: he’s patently manipulative.
Does he deserve another chance because he’s so young? Well, perhaps you could look at it this way: if there’s a possibility that he could straighten out “some day”, it won’t be because other people were kind to him, but rather because, in harsh reality, behaving as he does simply does not work. If he has a chance at health, in time he will come to see this. If not, then not. In short, you can help him most by not rewarding his manipulations.
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Mack39
The reason it’s a bad sign — in context — is because the person proclaiming mad love doesn’t know you yet. Nobody knows anybody after a couple of weeks. You only know as much as you’ve been able to show each other, which is hardly likely to be as much as you’ve been able to [i]fantasize[/i] about each other. So anybody proclaiming love at that point is more likely to be proclaiming love for a fantasy of you than for you yourself. And that conflict between fantasy and reality will show when you yourself begin to feel comfortable and open up, and they find you are a real live person after all, not a fantasy for satisfying their whims and predilections. And there will be conflict. If they are perverse enough, the conflict will end with them persuading you to put your real self back in the box and try on their fantasy for size, at least “for now” or “to keep the peace.” And then it will happen again.
It’s not a bad thing at all to show care and concern for someone even though you’re not intimate or close — that’s normal and it’s kind of what we’re doing here for each other: social cheerleading. But it’s [i]not[/i] normal to dive deeply at the shallow end of the pool, and then demand that others dive with you. Invariably someone’s neck snaps and all too often it’ll be yours: an abuser *never* dives as deeply as you do. What you expect from people is emotions and commitments that are proportionate to the quality and depth of the relationship. Neither withholding or excess; just something appropriate. But abusers aren’t good at appropriate. Furthermore, extreme attachment normally predicts extreme detachment: tantrums, guilt trips, threats of self-harm, and then dropping you in the cold Mississippi like a stone. That’s why it’s a warning sign.
In the case you shared, Deb, it wasn’t enough for the young man to listen to your daughter and back off; nor was it enough for him to match her furtive wave with an equally furtive wave: he had to clamp back on as soon as he could, and he would’ve stayed clamped had she been more encouraging. That’s disproportionate. Her discomfort barely registers with him. Something in his brain mangles a no into a yes. That’s dangerous. And either he has nothing to lose (”I hope I get killed…”) or he doesn’t mind seeing other people hurt (”…so I can get away from my parents”). Doesn’t sound healthy to me. You can’t cure him by feeling sorry for him and giving him another free pass. It just reinforces his usual pattern of behavior — which may well have worked quite nicely for him for at least a decade. And if he were to change, that would have to be on his initiative, with counseling, over a long period of time. Until then… not safe at all.
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Deb38
To Wendy,
My comment was #5 about my daughter breaking up with her boyfriend because of many of the “loser” traits and him calling me crying and begging for her back for quite a long time, that he’s changed, she’s the only person in his life that made him happy, she was his rock. I felt so sorry for him back then and although months have passed, I still feel bad for him. Why is that? My daughter is happy she is through with him and I’m worried that my compassion for his problems made me ask her to not be mean to him if we saw him somewhere. So she gave him a quick wave when we saw him at the mall and he called her as soon as we got home. She was not too happy with me. Thankfully, he didn’t pursue the calls again - just wanted to tell her it was good seeing her. I don’t know if I feel bad for him because he is just a kid that had really bad parents, or if because he has enlisted in the Marines and told us at one time that he hopes he get’s killed to get away from his parents? Regardless — I need to shut these feelings off - I know I can’t help him to change, nor would it be respectful to my daughter if she even knew I thought anything like that. I just don’t get why I feel for him. I was brought up in a normal family without experiencing any of these kinds of problems so I just don’t get any of this. I should be mad at him for the things he did - I guess I’m just a sucker for crying and apologies??? Or as you said can it really be manipulation from a 17 year old? He got me to the point where I felt bad that my daughter hurt him back by breaking up with him.Also, I’m confused as to why the first sign of an abuser is saying he loves you within a few weeks of the relationship, which he did. Why would a loving gesture be a sign of abuse?
Thank you for listening!!!
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debbie37
Kathleen, when I read what you wrote about your ex and his family the words ‘Its all about me’ sprung to mind. It seems to be more about what his child and you could do for him than really loving and caring. My ex claimed to be a good dad, but only saw his children when it suited him, and in fact he has abandoned at least one child in the past and is not seeing our child. He also pretended to be religious, crossing himself when he went past a Roman Catholic church, until we were married, when he decided not to bother any more. Funnily enough my ex claimed that I was THE ONE and being lonely I beleived him. How many other women have they said this too?? Probably every woman they meet and I’m sure there’s been a few. Wendy’s advice is good and also re-read Morris’ comment and look up the website. Did you ever meet his mother? My ex claimed that his mother lived in Italy which is why I never met her. In fact she was living in London and they had fallen out years previously. Keep strong!
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Wendy36
Hi Kathleen,
In your second-last post you outline how you still ponder details of your recent break up and wonder what is happening with your ex now, and you ask several times, “Why do I care?”
The answer: because you’re normal! It’s normal to care. It’s natural to ruminate about people we have come to care about but who don’t make sense to us, who hurt us, and who don’t seem to have normal responses themselves. It’s normal to find yourself trying to figure it all out, and to find the key. Normal people do this in relationships; it’s nothing more than a healthy attempt at problem solving. So celebrate - you’re healthy!
You will probably have to put up with your own ruminating for some time, as it’s practically automatic. _Don’t_ go back to your ex in order to shut it off. Educating yourself is important: read your previous posts, and the posts of others, and information on personality disorders. It will relieve you of some of your wonderments and keep you on a positive course. We’ve all been there.
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kathleen35
Thanks, Debbie for your comment. I wanted to share this other information, because I think it might be typical, in some way. Smitty (that’s not his name), who seemed to never have time to talk with me about anything, spent time talking about how much he “loved his son” and “missed his dad (dead)” and does take great care of his mother (living an hour away). He is a religious sort, and said that he prayed to find a woman he could love, and there was some mention that he realized that his son would grow away soon, and his mother would die, and that he would be alone. And then he met me. From the moment we met he knew I was the ONE. Well, I get the distinct feeling that I am/was nothing more than that: someone sent by God to buffer him from the losses of the real people he loved. In other words, I was a two-dimensional person, and this is why I was never allowed to be an individual, and this is why, when I spoke up for myself, he lost his cool, verbally abused me, and still expected me to “get over it” and just continue to be there, ad infinitum. He seems to have bonded with his nuclear family, then, at age 59, decided that he needed some sort of replacement for their loss, and there I was. His family, because they were family, has had to learn to deal with his obvious borderline personality, and, he figured, so would I. See, I have figured it all out, but I still miss the imaginary life that I thought I would have with him. It is very confusing to understand what is going on, and still not be able to move past it. I am trying. Thanks for listening.
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debbie34
Hi Kathleen
I am a bit concerned for you that you might give it another try with this man. This is what he is hoping for. He is trying different ways of getting to you and the silent treatment is one of these. Read the comment you wrote a few days ago and remind yourself what you are dealing with. Forget the earings, he is probably keeping them because he knows you want them and is holding them to ransome!! My ex did something similar with some of my property.
I remember my ex proudly saying that all his girlfriends wanted him back. Well I am determined not to be one of them, although despite everything that has happened I still have days where I wonder if that lovely person I first met could come back again. I look at our son and see my ex in his little face sometimes. The reality is, he was never going to change and if I stayed with him he would have destroyed me, just as your ex would. Take Dr Carvers advice and have no contact at all with him. Change your numbers if necessary. -
kathleen33
I cannot seem to get the guy out of my mind, and the four days that have elapsed since our break-up have been so disturbing to me. He dropped off my bicycle and some mail, with a curt note to “have your mail forwarded,please, thanks, happy face” but did not stop by to speak. When I phoned him to thank him for bringing the things, and to mention that my earrings were still at his home, he just hung up immediately, so that I had to send the message by email. Why am I so disturbed by this silent treatment? Is this just another manipulation, or is he really gone? And why do I care? I have no interest in meeting anyone else, and he did start therapy about ten days ago. Could his therapist have told him that I was the bad one? And, once again, why do I care? Why do I keep hoping he will change the bad behaviors, anger, swearing, criticizing, and then we can live happily ever after? I am seeing a therapist to try to help me deal with these conflicting feelings, but my anxiety level is very high.
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heidi32
I got the encouragement to split up from my loser husband from the most unexpected place.. a woman who he was interested in!
For years my ex-husband had traits like the list here.. it got worse and worse. In now recognize I grew up in a household where my mother was being battered but never left. From what I learned at home, people in our family don’t get divorced.. they ” stick it out” . That’s what I did through 8+ years of marriage.
So he hit 40 ( I’m 9 years younger) and started wanting to go out a lot at night. He mentioned this woman who I thought was stylish and interesting. I found a picture of them in a photo booth.. not a lovey dovey sort of thing.. just joke snapshots . I asked him about it.. and he said.. “well, aren’t you interested in her?( I have had relationships with women in the past before we were married) I thought this woman was nice and wanted to get to know her as a friend, but it wasn’t that way at all. My ex kept putting pressure on me.. said ” well, we could get to know her together. I was disgusted.
So I decided to ask her about the photos and tell her how my husband was behaving.
Her response was amazing. She was appalled. She shared some of her own history of abuse. 2 years before she had escaped from a situation with physical abuse.
She urged me to look at the situation I was tolerating.
She told me.. wow.. I don’t want to be friends with your husband anymore.. what a jerk. I know you are married and I’d never touch him because of that.So it was hard, but I asked my ex to leave ( I had been supporting him financially for 6 years- that’s another story altogether). I set him up with a place to stay with friends of ours about 2 hours away.
He agreed because he was sick of me and hated our house and many details of our life together. I got in touch with a therapist I had seen for marriage counseling with my ex and got some support through the divorce. I acted quickly, filed, and my ex was so blindsided that he agreed to all my demands.
I am so glad I had the self esteem to ask for everything I had rightfully earned. Now that the ink is dry he wishes he had sued for alimony!!After the divorce was final.. my ex wrote to this woman that he thought she was so cool and wanted to keep in touch. He also sent her a link to a page which detailed the true story of me.. that I am unstable, crazy and was making him very unhappy.. an excuse for his behavior.
She replied that he was a creep, and a LOSER and to not contact her again.He was so mad he started posting hateful things about me on the internet. At one point he said.. ” my ex wife’s friends are even worse than my ex wife!”
Surround yourself with friends who will look after you.. I was so glad to have feedback after my marriage ended. My first relationship after this happened
had a some of the same types of traits, but I could see it for what it was and ended it with my self esteem intact!Thank you Dr. Carver! This is a very crucial discussion!
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Josh31
Follow up to my comment:
It really is sad to see people in these states, she was a beautiful girl but still has deep-seeded emotional issues with not being attractive enough, just like one of the traits on the list. She could have made a great girlfriend if she had not been abused earlier in life, she had gone through her best friend dying at age 17 by a drunk driver, she had been sexually and physically abused by ex boyfriends, she had gotten pregnant and her ex boyfriend before me would not let her keep it and she was devastated, and through all of this she has never gone to therapy. All of this happened early in her life too, she is only 20 years old, which probably contributed to quite a bit of her emotional instabilities.
It’s a sad world, it really is, abusive people turning other innocent people into abusers themselves. It’s just an endless cycle and it just tugs at your heart strings to see that some of these people might never be happy in life, no matter what.
Thank you, again.
-Josh
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