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365 Responses to “550 Reader Comments on Dr Carver’s ‘Loser’ Article”
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Wendy190
All I can say is, WOW. All these contributions in the last few weeks, and everyone is so articulate. I am glad you are all doing OK, and you can be proud of sharing your stories, because it is of immense help to all the other readers (keep in mind, we only ever “see” a small percentage of them, as most people are not comfortable about writing).
On the cookie-cutter theme, Margaret’s experience of her ex (of one week) coming to her coffee place with his new squeeze is very typical. I didn’t have to suffer anything like this, but on the last day of our friendship I remember my former friend for some reason outlining how baffled he was that people could not be more “positive” and rejoice in others’ happiness. To give me an example, he imagined a situation in which he had a new girlfriend and of course would not hesitate to be affectionate with her in public, in front of her recent ex. “Why should that be a ‘bad’ thing?” he wondered out loud. “The main thing should be that we are happy”.
Jeepers.
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Diane189
Thanks Margeret,
I have to say your last post reads so poetically funny. Especially the charming toxic part. It’s got quite a rythem to it.
Diane
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margaret188
Morris - you made me laugh! Ditto ditto ditto…right down to “I was the cold callous, materialistic workaholic”…while he spent my money, accepted my gifts, drove my car…he even got uppity with my cleaning lady, as if he were the lord of the manor… I had to apologize! All this without a penny to his name. He even used my AMEX. When I confronted him he shifted it onto me, saying he just “forgot to tell me” and “all you care about is money”. Wow..talk about turning the tables. How do you “forget” to tell someone you used their credit card?
I was in despair. I knew he had no limits and that there was no level at which I could trust him. I was, for all my success, completely out of my league. I became extremely depressed…he hit me 3 times, nothing he ever said was true, everything he touched was a catastrophe…people were taking him to court. All the while, I’m the one trying to manage all this, plus my own life, plus my business. My whole life was turned upside down. When we broke up he told a friend that “he really tried, but he just couldn’t handle my depression”. The first night after we broke, I went to a beautiful restaurant all by myself and ordered a martini. I was FREE! But of course, he even had to destroy my piece of mind in our breakup. Within days he started showing up in my space with his new girlfriend (who now pays all the bills) and I felt horrible. Control and meanness to the very end…I could never win. He just went on his charming, toxic way. -
Morris187
Hi Margaret,
One thing that I forgot to mention was agreement to your statement on how our exes turn the situations around.
When we 1st met, my wife was “happy” with my qualities. I was healthy, loyal, didn’t drink or do drugs, had a good income and savings, I also was “sharing” in that I realized that I would be taking care of her and her son. She related to me how her 1st husband was an alcoholic, cheated on her and didn’t share in his wealth. Her 2nd husband was controlling and put her behind his existing kids and was always busy with his work.
In my case, I started out as an Ogler so I must be a pervert now. One of my friends sent me some “pictures”; my wife thought I was a porn addict, yes, I too can be naughty! When we met, I was fairly healthy; I worked out on a regular basis. My wife thought me to be too skinny (maybe I was anorexic also) and wanted me to put on weight which I did when I was too depressed to work out on a regular basis. I stopped going to my health club for fear of my wife joining me and G-d forbid, being in proximity of another woman working out; I am an ogler after all. So, I was not as healthy as before and for some reason, not as loving as before; when I left, my wife said it was me being with my non-existant girlfriend or doing “perverted” stuff. I became a “drug addict” with the tranquilizers I was prescibed; for some reason, I became nervous and depressed so I went to a psychologist, I was obviously crazy also. In the beginning of the marriage, I was very busy at work; in the last year or so, I worked late and on weekends even if I was not all that busy, can’t imagine why. What I can’t figure out is that if it was bad to be a workaholic then why was my ex only too happy to spend and spend? What else I couldn’t figure out was between, my addictions, perversions and torrid affair, where did I get the time to work 50+ hours a week? Why would a company even employ someone like me in a high end position and pay me so? Oh yes, I also was keeping secret accounts (toward the end, I did ask my mother for help in the regard of a retainer for a lawyer; I could afford it but my wife demanded and had access to all my accounts. It would have been tough to explain away a check to a divorce attorney).
So, there you have it; the marriage was great until my wife realized I was a pervert, sex addict and not as loving. I then became a drug addict, depressed and crazy. I also stole money from our joint account (depleted when I left, I borrowed on my line of credit and left 6K for her use). Despite everything she did, I ran out on her and her son leaving them destitute ($6000 left in the checking account, me paying the condo bills for 5 months, splitting the proceeds of sale for the condo, settlement money, her lawyer, me paying off bills that were run up during the marriage); to top it off, I left her to be with another woman. I must have left her to be with another woman; what other reason could there have been?
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margaret186
Dianne, when I read the last line of my previous post, I actually made myself laugh out loud. But it wasn’t intended to be funny. It’s a true story…but that is the distortion of the world according to these ‘losers’. Yes, I laughed but I also understand your grief, pain and confusion all too well. The horrors of my story are too numerous and complex to recount here and I truly suffered for almost two years…the kind of pain where you are all alone, on your knees, sobbing and asking God to show your some mercy. Where you do foolish things against your better judgement, like go back again because you really can’t believe someone who can be so sweet is really so hard of heart, so evil, so cynical, so calculating. Believe it or not…it does pass. You change, you grow, you learn, you become wiser, you become more of a human being. But they stay the same. The exact same. They run the same game, speak the same lines, repeat the same patterns. So in a way, through it all, you became something more. And they remain what they are most afraid of being…nothing.
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Diane185
I don’t kbow how you guys can be strong?
I guess I am in that other place still.
I’ve been coming here to gain perspective
and I guess its harder than I could imagine.
You and Morris seem so strong and stern.
And I like your honesty and humor. -
margaret184
Morris - I enjoyed reading your story. I guess the not-so-nice part of me can’t wait until he loses his looks…better yet, his hair. That will kill him. Unlike your friend, this fellow doesn’t have the benefit of family money. Without living with (and off) a woman, he is essentially homeless, which is why he has to find someone new right away. For the benefit of others who read here, another feature you mention is absolutely spot-on and a major red flag… there is ALWAYS something wrong with the exes. To hear my ex-bf talk you would think he’d never met anyone but alcoholics, anorexics, depressives, crazys, workaholics (me), coke addicts, potheads…his first wife (one of 3 by age 44) had the audacity to leave him and get a job “far away” (explaining why he cheated on her). I said “you mean ‘far-away’ as in another country or another state?”. He actually said “no, the next town over”.
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Morris183
Hi Margaret,
Don’t feel bad about your “feelings”; I think that what you are going through is only natural.
I felt it necessary to define what I thought was a loser. At 1st, I thought the name “loser” to be harsh and demeaning. My thought is that Dr. Carver came up with the slogan not so much as a descriptor, but for us; it hit me squarely in the face. Dr. Carver’s articles were a great step for me in not only recognizing but quantifying “loser” personalities.
I hate to say it, but my father had many of these “loser” qualities; many of us that have been victims probably grew up with a similar parent. Unfortunately, we learned to adapt; in my case, I was a magnet for bullies and many of my friends were losers! Later in life, without realizing, I married two women that were losers.
One particular loser friend fits the description of your ex boyfriend. He was good looking, well educated, extremely book smart and came from money. You would think that with all these attributes, he seemed to be a “can’t miss” in life. Albeit he was extremely book smart, his street smarts were not there. He was charming, intelligent, good looking, however, he was lazy; being a loser, his motive operandi was to get others to do the work, to take the chance while he reaped the benefits. One by one he used, tried using his friends until he lost them all. I think that I was the last friend; let’s just say that when I said “no” to a scheme where he had no risk and I had nothing but downside, he dumped me as a “friend”. Rather than work in his profession, he spent his time and efforts on marginal enterprises that were risky; in time he would lose much of his and his parent’s money. He would go through beautiful young women; the last that I know of from his home country in Eastern Europe, about 20 years younger than him. Albeit I have lost touch, my feelers tell me that either he is either looking over his shoulder (involved with illegal activities), living with his parents or perhaps dead. Your ex BF is the same age as my “friend” would be today; I don’t think that he is getting the 20 year olds anymore (unless he pays). Eventually, his parent’s money will run out if not already, he will not be able to afford “flashy” women; like I said before, none of his old friends want to have anything to do with him.
I got married late in life, twice. My 1st was after a lengthy courtship and engagement; a few months into the marriage, deep down inside, I knew it wasn’t going to work. After a year of separation, I thought I was ready to get back on the horse again. This was a mistake in that I was very needy; at 50, I doubted my looks, self-esteem etc. etc. When I met my 2nd wife, I thought we had much in common, unfortunately, past experience does not add up to a lasting relationship; present and future common goals are more important. Both of us were in cold passionless previous marriages; my 2nd wife is also drop dead gorgeous, I got sucked in pretty good!
I realized that my 2nd marriage was a mistake; it was a quick involvement. Just read my articles. I thought that Dr. Carver was somehow spying on me; his descriptions were pretty well dead on! The positive thing that came after my 2nd marriage was lack of need; after suffering with “beauty”, I need a long sojourn from any kind of romantic activity. My therapist says that this is very good and healthy. Still, this was another costly marriage not so much in money which was steep but in time and emotion. In my case, it is hard to fathom being single and never married well into my 40’s but now divorced twice at 50! According to my therapist, my situation is not unusual; she related to me far worse nightmare hell stories. Fortunately, I still have my health, sanity and profession intact!
Margaret, take your time and recuperate; don’t get into a relationship like I did out of insecurity. Your flashy ex is like a candle burning brightest just before it goes out. Eventually your ex will extinguish himself; he will lose his looks. Perhaps he will find other ladies to swindle but not you! Me, albeit I don’t have the need, I still am wearing my wedding band; I don’t want to take any chances, perhaps in a year, I will take it off.
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margaret182
Morris, I am stunned at how accurate your definition of the “loser” is…even though it upsets me very much. My loser was VERY able to work yet could not keep a job, nor did he have any desire to. He did not have a penny, had no friends or long-term relationships because he owed everyone money and never paid them. At 50, all he had was good looks and a good rap…no home, no car, no job, no savings, nothing but charm. I was very successful and oh, how I suffered for it. I was accused of being a “workaholic”, I didn’t know anything about “intimacy”, I didn’t know how to have “fun”…meanwhile he was living freely off my lifestyle, driving my car, using my credit cards… and making me more depressed and lonely than I have ever been. (Although when things got bad and I would want to ditch him he would send me the most loving emails…interspersed with emails in which my faults were enumerated in detail. It was all “I’m ok. You’re not ok”.) Every word he ever told me was a lie…but told in the most genuine, innocent way. Now, here is my problem. I finally dumped him a year ago and within a week was with someone else, coming to the place I had coffee in the morning with her! She was also a woman with money. She seemed crazy about him. Now, he is asking her for money. She is upset about that. In response he attacks her. Then he professes true love. I, who should be well beyond this… FEEL LIKE THE FAILURE. Like he loves her and it’s all wonderful and I am…”The Loser”
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Morris181
All,
My definition of a “LOSER”:
Someone that is actually a Wolf wearing Sheep’s clothing. Losers initially act as loving and in many cases helpless individuals that COME OFF as having been dealt misfortune either by others or by fate.
To be frank, I have been down and out myself when my profession has cycled downward in the past; I was also bullied when I was younger. When I met my two “exes” initially both were seemingly loving, well educated and together; they were just “down” when I met them. What I noticed was that once I was ensconced in the relationships, their trueness came to life. What was most compelling was that each had a story that was similar in that their “exes” had done bad things to them. In my case when the economy bounced in my favor; I relished the chance of a new, challenging position that matched my education and skill set; in retrospect, after I was with them for about a year, I saw that my “exes” were not comfortable working in full time jobs that matched their intelligence and education. Still later, both of my “exes” started to turn on me; what they said their “exes” did to them, they were now doing to me. In each case, they had health ailments that became worse because of my “influence”. An example was encouraging and supporting them to get better or full time jobs, this was what both of them wanted; when they couldn’t handle them, you guessed it, they took it out on me.
LOSER = AN INDIVIDUAL WITH ABILITY THAT CANNOT MAKE IT ON THEIR OWN; THEY NEED OTHERS FOR “SUPPORT” AND BECOME RESENTFUL OF THEIR SIGNIFICANT OTHERS FOR BEING WHAT THEY ARE NOT. In relationships, “losers” are “Catch-22″; if you are kind, supportive and loving, they turn on you, if you stand up to their anger and selfishness, they turn on you.
Hi Clara,
You are going through similar to what many of us in here have.
Again to reiterate; this is tough on your heart and what you have been taught, still, the recommendation is NO CONTACT of any kind; read my piece above, read my own nightmarish accounts. It is tough, you are kind and giving; if you get back with this individual, he will eventually become even worse than before.
Hi Pat,
I have had similar issues. To be frank though, from what I read, it seems to be more of a disparity in income. In both of my cases, my exes became resentful of the disparity.
In my 1st marriage, my ex resented the “control” I had of the household money. When we were 1st married, she quit her job because of the “stress”; I supported her but still voice my misgivings, I encouraged her to work part time until she found something else. When we 1st married, I asked her to contribute to the household bills; her answer was that since it was “my” apartment, I should continue to pay the bills as before. When she quit her job, I gave her an “allowance”; this made her resentful of my “control”.
When I married for the 2nd time, I tried to rectify what I thought was a mistake from the 1st marriage (I did ask others whom indicated that it was not unusual for the main breadwinner, or the better money manager to “manage” the household income). We had a joint account where both our paychecks were deposited. Initially, we did discuss goals; mine was saving for retirement and my wife’s was putting aside money for her son’s education. As the marriage progressed, my wifes spending increased geometrically; she sent money to her family, spent on herself, manipulated me to putting retirement money in her name. The sad part was that albeit we did save for her son, it could have been more; saving for retirement stopped due to her excessive spending. During this time, my income actually increase 50%!
I give you both of these instances as examples of how money can contribute to the demise of a marriage; in both cases note that there were other much more serious issues.
Many marriages are successful and loving even though one spouse is the main breadwinner. Couples are able to communicate and work through monetary issues with common goals. In my 2nd marriage, I was willing to put off early retirement; being with a loving partner was more important. If you love your girlfriend and she is not a “loser”, then sit down with her and discuss your future goals. If you do have children, she may end up being a housewife for years to come anyway. Another question to ask yourself is: Are you both on the same emotional and intellectual level? Both of my exes were intelligent and well educated, unfortunately, there were other issues; in both marriages, were were on the same level intellectually.
Alex,
A loser will NEVER admitt that they have issues; they will blame their significant others 100%. You are not a “loser” in that you realize that you have an issue and are willing to work on it! My advise is to go to therapy; there is no quick and easy cure. No matter, you have taken the 1st step to keeping or gaining new friends; perhaps later, even a significant other.
Michelle,
During my divorce, my lawyer protected me from me. I have quite a few of my wife’s things with me. I asked my lawyer toward the end, to communicate what she wanted me to do with her things; my lawyer never responded.
For now, I will put her things aside and store them with me. If there is some subsequent contact, I will send the things to her; no direct contact.
Don’t let his things act as a magnet to get you back. Either do as I did by putting them “out of site, out of mind” or send them to him or a relative of his or give away his things to charity.
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