Comments on “More on Relationship Losers, Abusers, Manipulators and Controllers”

218 Responses to “More on Relationship Losers, Abusers, Manipulators and Controllers”

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  Pamela

  12th November 2007

  160

  Thanks for your insight Dr. Carver. Wondering also, is it common for these losers/manipulators to actually give you “mock” or “phony” admissions of how “screwed-up” they are - but only at such times when there is little at stake for them in saying it. My ex would - in periods when we were more harmonious - throw out statements like he had to get his “stuff” together and “work on himself.” And he at times would acknowledge his lack of historical ability to gain intimacy in relationships, but he’d only say so in passing - almost with the implication that was “all in the past” and that now he was self-aware. In any event, such conversations never really ever got applied to the current situation of “us” and never translated into meaningful efforts to “change behavior.” These comments would always seems “tossed off” - not that I did not think these situations bothered him - more that he didn’t know or try to attack them, nor make the commitment to really fix something. I almost felt like he said these things to set himself up for absolution later - because he had afterall told me how “messed up” he was. Almost as if to say - “Hey you drink from the poison cup - you get what you deserve!” He’d often tell me he’s stepping up his “spiritual” practice - as if that was somehow going to get him where he needed to go - by magically unlocking some hidden secret, with no real examination of what’s beneath. (I don’t mean to denigrate actual spiritual practice here -more the technique of using it superficially - as a substitute for true self-examination.) He’d also claim to be “working on himself” but never make that work evident or visible in any way -it was all somehow mysteriously working in the background. Much like the “sorrow” he was always telling me he felt - but which never quite broke the surface and became visible to me. Yes, he assured me it was there - but not that I could feel. Is this just part of the whole “MO” of these types - these “mock” or “toothless” confessionals they have - statements that are so broad and sweeping about what a “heel” they are - do they say this just so they know you know you’ve been warned?

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  Joseph M Carver Ph D

  12th November 2007

  159

  Hi All: When dealing with a Loser/Abuser your normal, healthy personality and common courtesy is used against you. One thing you’ll notice is that heart-to-heart, honest/open, serious, and closure conversations and communications have no impact on the Loser at all. They aren’t listening because in reality, they’re preoccupied with the crisis and options provided by the contact. When confronted, for example, they aren’t thinking about the issue but rather “What do I have to say or do to get out of this…”. With that theme, they offer temper tantrums, accusations, guilt, promises, blame you, denial, etc. This is also why they claim they’re open to discussion, they love you, they NOW have an understanding, etc.

  As Wendy describes, your reason for contacting them is irrelevant to them. Instead, they see any contact as an opportunity for additional use/abuse. They also use your courtesy and desire not to be rude against you. This is why their “fishing” for contacts often works. We feel rude if we don’t return the call/email.

  Discussions about future friendships, closure, and what-went-wrong are only appropriate for healthy ex-partners. If a Loser wants a discussion of any type, you can be sure it’s for their agenda - not for the benefit of the relationship, closure, or understanding.

  Remember that a person’s behavior is their true personality - not what they say to us. If they abuse and use people while saying “I love you” - that’s an assurance that they will continue to use/abuse you, all the while saying “I love you”. Dr. Carver

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  Wendy

  12th November 2007

  158

  Hi Pamela,

  I, too, have been tempted to write a “closure” letter. After all, I try in all situations to be a decent person and not to let another’s behavior influence my behavior, and I think that such a letter would only be appropriate, after such a significant friendship. I would certainly like to say that there are ultimately no hard feelings, and that I wish him well. But one of the handy things about this forum, including what you have just written, is that it reminds us of the probable reality. If I wrote to ML, in all sincerity, he then would use it as an excuse to contact me. I know my hope would be rekindled that he was “better” now. I would likely communicate back. And I know I would be hurt and disappointed again when his arrogant, all-knowing and frankly cruel side showed up.

  But I know how strongly I’ve been tempted!

  Lately this has lightened up some. Fortunately he has left me alone. The whole thing does begin to fade with time, so there’s no way I’d breathe any new life into it now! And the anger fades too.

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  Pamela

  11th November 2007

  157

  Thanks for your thoughts Wendy - and insights.

  Yeah, I agree with you about the not holding onto anger part. That’s the ultimate goal. I have gotten to that place in the past too - many times - of not being angry any longer (after all, it is such a boring and de-energizing place to stay) - and I know I will get back there again. The only reason for the “reminders” of the “bad things” at present - is how vulnerable I feel myself to be when I once again have fallen “under the spell, where I’ve taken another drink from the “poison cup.” Even though each time I go back - I do so dressed in “full protective gear” - I still end up getting squashed like a bug. I simply have to remember all that was wrong about “us” together. (More so than all the things that were “right” and “good” - of which there were many.)

  In fact, the irony of this latest reconnection was it came from my sending him a note of “closure” about how I had cast off anger. And I was VERY SINCERE in writing it - and I can honestly say it was not an attempt to rekindle.

  Oh well - doesn’t matter now. I still find myself second-guessing if I’m being too harsh and “unforgiving” and “judgmental” as he so often tells me I am - as I do have a difficult time keeping my temper and sharp tongue in check and I know this has a negative impact on our entire situation as he recoils and withdraws and goes into immediate rejection mode - when he feels threatened in any way.

  In the end though, as I dissect it - it is his verbal abuse techniques that ultimately deliver me to a place of extreme primal anguish - and then I’m off the deep end. It is a vicious cycle.

  As you describe Wendy, I too felt like there were so many great areas of compatibility with him - and of course, as many others have noted - these are the things that tug at us and keep us in, and coming back. Wanting to regain those things. I just have to remember that those aspects where just “starting points” for us - the things that made us connect in the first place - and not the things that would carry us through and grow together. My ex kept insisting and insisting he wanted to be “loving” and stop hurting me, and I could not keep from thinking to myself (and saying aloud at times of course) - “Well, then do that!” Really, if someone has to talk so much about how they WANT to love and WANT to stop hurting - could they really be actually giving that much love? If you don’t want to contribute to someone’s pain - one sure way to not do that is to STOP hurting that person. People who are loving and who do not wish to hurt - make it happen. They change the things that make them hurt. They fix and repair. They apologize and show what they will do differently. They do not talk endlessly about the many things you did that somehow REQUIRED them to hurt you - giving you the not-so-subtle message that you brought it all on yourself.

  With him - there were just too many cruel ironies - things that were nonsensical and distorted. Always this person coming back to me the next day, saying “But, I love you, don’t you see?” even as I’m rubbing the place on my rear-end where I got the most recent boot-kick out the door for having the nerve to express a strong emotion or ask a question in attempt to have him answer for the hurt he meted out - the hurt that elicited the strong emotional “reaction” in the first place. Quite a dead-end we hit.

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  Wendy

  11th November 2007

  156

  Hi, Pamela,

  My goodness how familiar this sounds! It is just like my “ML”.

  My “ML” carried on this way much of the time, gradually getting worse. At the end point, in August, I informed him by e-mail that our friendship was over and I would only ever communicate with him again on the condition that he seek professional guidance. It is highly doubtful that he will, and I do miss him, but I am glad I took that course. Like you, my situation was not complicated by legalities or property, or by children.

  But, hoo-wah, it’s so similar. I remember one occasion when my “ML” came up to me while I was happily cooking us a nice dinner, and said something quite obviously hurtful, and then looked perfectly happy about it. I was appalled (things had been going well, so it was disappointing, too). Thing is, what he said was so obviously hurtful that he could not explain it away. He was caught. And so I asked him, if it were true that he had such extraordinary insight into women (as he so often asserted), and specifically that he had a complete understanding of me personally (as he claimed), how could he believe it was fine to say such a thing to me?

  He took his only option - to explode in anger over my insensitivity in questioning something that was “so important to him”, his great insight into women. He didn’t speak to me for a day. I probably even apologized … I don’t remember.

  Situations like these you don’t need, it’s true. Constantly having to see “black as white”, as you say, is a huge and hidden strain that will eventually depress and exhaust you.

  Right now it’s a useful tool to remember how rotten he was, to remind you to steer clear of him. Eventually, I think that all of us will hopefully be able to let go of the negativity and bad memories and just see the relationship as a past situation that we learned from. I had fun with my “ML”, and it’s simply a shame that the compatibility we shared had to be ruined by whatever his issues were. But there it is, and it’s out of our hands. Best to involve ourselves with new activities and healthier people.

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  Pamela

  11th November 2007

  155

  I was in “no-contact” with my (by comparison to some of these guys) “mild-mannered” artfully verbal abusing loser. I would never say “harmless” - as that is far from true. In any event there is that charming part of him - and it seems if I see just the smallest molecule of true emotion from him (I mean tiny) I am back on the hook. I never come all the way back - I have a “holdback” mode that I go into to - which is the mode of “Yeah, I’ll listen, but if three’s the smallest break between words and deeds - you are going to hear about it.” Well of course, there are instant breaks between all the pretty words and the behavior that follows. And of course he doesn’t want these inconsistencies and incongruities pointed out. Whew - if anything gets close to him having to actually answer for a bad actions he took - well let’s just say - the one who points this out is told to stand down (in the “nicest” sort of ways of course - he says she “holds on to anger” and to “past mistakes” and she is “smoking him out” and “hurting him” and will not find a “loving way” to talk etc. etc). And if she persists to point out the bad things (that don’t ever seem to stop) - as she must - she will eventually be shown the door. Or be treated so poorly she shows herself the door.

  Isn’t this the fundamental flaw with these self-delusional types - they claim that they are “open” to hearing things - and discussing things - and even tell you that they “love you” while they are at the same time tugging on your hair so violently that your eyes water. (This is a metaphor in my case, I realize for others it is no metaphor). Then they act surprised that you are not overjoyed at being told they love you! In any event, what I’ve come to see is his acts of cruelty have gotten worse over time -and his lack of recognition of the cruelly has gotten worse as well. In other words, the situation as escalated - the guy is a bigger loser than ever -and he sees it himself as “going the extra” mile to help me heal. Claims he is playing fair, he is making amends, and rebuilding trust. This while he is still remains in a period sexual relationship with the same woman he cheated with one year ago. He does so when we break the many times we break. And why do we break - well the cycle above just repeats and repeats. He goes back to her - I freak out that he has - when he has told me he is “done” with her - he says (implicitly, not explicitly) “get over it.” I don’t like his attitude, tone and approach - and we are OFF to the RACES again.

  He justifies it by saying that she would have been long gone -had I ever forgiven him. Oh, that’s right, I tell him again and again, if I would just see that everything is “my fault” we’d be on the road to nirvana. He looks at me, as basically he tells me to believe that black is white, up is down and wrong is right. He tell me that the way he behaves toward me is somehow “love.” No. I think that what I really have had on my hands is someone who is sexually and emotionally “addcited” to this other woman - but he’s sooner die than face that reality.

  I can’t take it any more. I believe in essence this one will go to any measure, any extreme, to hold tight to his own self-delusion that he is a “blameless” person. He believes his own con so deeply - that any and all that see it any other way -must GO. That’s fine by me. (Easy for me. .. . we have no kids together, no marriage. Separate lives. No contact would be easy - if there were no residual emotional connection.)

  I am getting to that - no emotional connection. It gets closer with each break we have. I have finally taken some of the advice from others and have used technology to assist me. I have made myself a calendar reminder on my computer that sends me two “reminders” a day - one to my computer desk and one also to my cell phone. The “reminder” I receive is “Remember the God-Awful things he did to you.”

  This is something my brother said to me one day - said as only someone on the outside can see it and say it - cause when we ourselves are in the “muck” things are shrouded and we are rationalizing and deceiving ourselves (or in any event I was.)

  This thought has stuck in my brain as such a pure thought, a true thought. One that can get me out - if I can “hold that thought” instead of the others - the thoughts of having ‘breakthrough” of some kind. The dream I’ve held of this man somehow healing himself one day.

  If I could remember that always - the god-awful-things-he-has-done - it would make things so clear and simple. One simply does not need to be with someone who will do awful things to them - time and again - with no real ability to curtail the behavior, no ability to give true apology, and no ability to atone for it - providing NO opportunity to heal - and certainly not an atmosphere where true reconciliation can take place.

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  Nancy

  9th November 2007

  154

  Hello, Yesterday I left the shelter, it was bitter sweet. I’m here in the country and my family live in Mexico, therefore I felt safe there. Now I’m a house mate with a coworker and his wife. Its amazing that now I’m getting in touch with myself and I feel safe. Yes is painful, and realizing I was moving out,gave me the realization tha tmy marriage is gone. Yet it feels like a relief, now I see it was more painful being with him. At times I miss him, but as I regain my independence, I feel that this was the best choice. Also let me share one of the elements that has given me the courage to stay on track. A lady in the shelter was almost beaten up to death by her ex, eventhough they were not living together… and she has just given birth to their son a week ago. When you hear this stories, they can seem distant, but hearing them in first person can create an impact. I used my time in the shelter to learn about personality disorders, atendiong ALANON, therapy, participating in forums like this, all this elements has given me the awareness to come out of the denial. Thanks Dr. Carver, this forum is truly life saving.
  The analogy of the puzzle is amazing, I knew I was unhappy, I knew I was in pain, but could not point out why. Is true the intuition is there, yet somehow I ignored it. Also, I was given an additional strategy to keep the no contact policy, a lady in the shelter told me yesterday that when I feel like calling him, look myself in the mirrow, and remember the bruises, he caused. Although in my case I dind’t got any bruises in the outside, but inside my self love was in pieces, and it was painful.
  I hope one day, this crime againts the person can be prosecuted, sometimes law helps the victim once its to late.
  Something elese I want to share is that I was able to tell, that the constant abuse, can make some woman loose their mind. Is sad to see how far the abuse can get, therefore if you are still dating…literally run for your minds. If you choose to leave, no, is not easy, but I realize I cried more while being with him, than now. There is a way to go for me, the divorce is still in process, yet I pray to God, to give the strength and wisdom to carry each day.

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  Wendy

  8th November 2007

  153

  Hi Mack, Dr. Carver, Mary, Everybody …

  Yepp, Mack, “periodic residue” is a very good way to put it. That’s about the stage I am at as well. And I love your comments about intuition. I noted in one of your earlier posts, right after I joined the forum, that you stated that it was your intuition that kept telling you to give your former-whatzit another chance. That’s how I felt as well, and as I have said, both my husband and I had a “feeling” that this person would be a good friend.

  The way I have explained it to myself is that I was not wrong in what I saw in our former friend; it was what I didn’t see that was the problem. And Dr. Carver has just given us an excellent description of the process of discovery, with his puzzle pieces analogy. We should not kick ourselves, or disparage our intuition, because we could not see the whole puzzle from the first. And in future, if we recognize these same puzzle pieces in another person, we will surely be more cautious.

  If it sounds a little wishy-washy, it is! Every person is a new grab-bag, and no person “is” a diagnosis. I, too, felt offended because I thought that I would now and forevermore have to question my intuition. But I have let myself off that hook. I feel that as this settles I am developing a little wisdom (dare I say it!), which need not contradict my intuition, but might moderate my impulses now and then when needed.

  I must add that, most times when I have had an emotional situation with someone, once a little time had passed, the issues and behaviors have seemed much less outrageous, and easier to approach and reconcile. But my situation with “ML” has been quite different. The more time that passes (and the more time I have to regain my bearings), the more bizarre his behavior and our situations together seem!

  Keep up the good work, everybody! Nice to hear from you, Mary!

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  Mack

  8th November 2007

  152

  Dr. Carver — yes you’re right: one never gets the whole picture all at once, otherwise one would immediately run and the losers would never get the fun and self-defeating game they’re looking for. It’s been by looking back at my journals from when I first met the fellow that I’m seeing more of the reality, down to my response to his earliest sniping attempt and my immediate line-drawing, and then my confusion that “I want to back off, but he won’t let me… it’s weird!” … Ah, hindsight! :-)

  Mary — I hear your frustration and also experienced some of what it means to be alone within a relationship. Some people, especially people in my parents’ and grandparents’ generations, were able to find people/activities outside their marriages to fill the void within it — like work, church, or fishing, lol. Yet ultimately they (or we, by watching) found out that there’s always a cost to doing that at least if it stops you addressing the real void and becomes a prop-up for some weak structure. & I guess you’re seeing that too: there’s some cost to staying and there’s some cost to leaving… I don’t have authority to tell you which cost to choose, but all of us are here to listen and support you as you plan out how to make your life work for you. *Encouragement*

  Debbie — you’re welcome; it made sense to me too! And the principle of being comfortable with yourself was one of the reasons I decided to boot the guy. Some time after the fellow had abdicated again, my best friend asked me “Well, if he’s not helping you be your best self, what’s he good for?” When I realized that I really had no smart answer, that more or less settled it. :-) This was a bitter experience, “knowledge painfully acquired,” but I’m beginning to see value in the lesson even if I can’t ever justify the teacher.

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  debbie

  8th November 2007

  151

  Thank you Mack for that quote. I think I will write that one out!!
  I am lucky that I was on my own for over a year before I met my ex, so I had got used to it. Its good to consider why we need to be on our own sometimes.