Comments on “More on Relationship Losers, Abusers, Manipulators and Controllers”
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218 Responses to “More on Relationship Losers, Abusers, Manipulators and Controllers”
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Sally120
Alika, like you, almost all of us have had very weak moments, but you must ask yourself what you think you will gain by talking to him again? You only have to re read all your messages and the answers to know what his tactics are and what you must expect. I made a pact with myself in May of this year. After one particular message from Dr Carver when he pointed out in capital letters that NO CONTACT was the only way forward, it suddenly dawned on me that he was absolutely right and I said to myself that I would never, ever respond to this man ever again and I that I wouldn’t let myself down by going back on my word. It was a heck of a tall order at the time but I have kept true to my word even though at times it has been impossibly hard.
Since then I have had numerous calls and sweet loving messages. I change his word ‘love’and similar words to ‘control’ so when he says ‘All I want is to love you’ or ‘I love you’ etc etc… It takes on a whole new meaning.
I have changed his name on my phone, so when he calls it now comes up with ‘Loser’ instead of his real name. That puts me in a mind set before I become sentimental and lastly I have a song, that keeps me strong too. Robbie Williams track ‘No Regrets’. The last line being the penultimate.
Keep strong Alika -
Alika119
My loser has been calling me non stop since the long wknd (fri, sat, sun, mon, tues). I feel like he’s wearing me down. I haven’t made any contact thus far. I can feel the manipulation and threats in his voicemail coming soon.
I just need some encouragemen to not make any calls and that I am fine.
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Wendy118
Pamela - your experience is almost word-for-word my experience. Ditto for why it had to end. And double-ditto for the fact (I just wrote this to a friend yesterday!) that there was a part of me that was, in later times, a little fascinated with his disorder, and wondered how it would all pan out for him.
Your friend’s insidious way of making you the “squeaky wheel” is also characteristic. I certainly questioned my “ML’s” behavior towards me, sometimes tearfully. In response he would insist that my discomfort stemmed from “ghosts from my past” (experiences in previous relationships). But, like you, I am lucky enough never to have been been mistreated in my life … so I would tell him that, no, it was him, and what he just did. But if I complained right away it was “too fresh”, and if I waited more than a day, I was “brooding over the past.” So I know just what you are describing.
Well, my angst has about run its course. It’s true about us lucky ones not being entangled with babies and legal arrangements (and this all started with ML offering to be a sperm donor!).
When we are venting here on the forum, it’s nice to know that, by sharing our experiences, we help bring clarity to ourselves and others dealing with this situation.
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Pamela117
Thanks Debbie and Wendy for comments back on my post. What I forgot to write at the end of my original post - was that in the end, who cares if he’s a full-blown “loser” or not. The fact is - I couldn’t relax and love him openly(which is the only way I’m interested in loving) and didn’t feel near enough reciprocity (to say the least) to get what I needed to thrive in the relationship. (Isn’t thriving - not just “surviving” what loving is about?) Who needs it?
(I want to note that my situation was NOT a marriage and there are no kids involved, so it is quite easier for me to say “who needs it” than for others out here - who have much more at stake than I did with him. I count my blessing on this front, after hearing the stories of others and I give everyone in these more difficult situations my full admiration for how they are surviving and protecting their children and healing from the harm done to them.)
Specific to Wendy’s comment about how being valued is key. It sure is! My ex used to wonder and ask me what terrible things happened to me in my past that would make me so easily hurt, insecure, and ultimately angry. I told him quite emphatically that the problem was NO ONE, but no one, in my entire life has very treated me poorly. The opposite is true. I received validation and support from every corner - all the time. I sometimes felt I got more day-to-day validation from mere acquaintances, as compared to my ex. In response to that question I just looked at him directly and told him - the “problem” I have - is that the person I most would most expect to receive love, validation and support from, namely, him - gives very little of it. In fact, he gives the inverse of that - he strips away my spirit and does not give me anywhere near the same care and consideration that seems to flow so easily from others in my life.
Also, Debbie your comment about them coming back with all these pretty words and the guilt-tripping is right-on (yet they never ever mention all of things they have done themselves to bring them to the sorry situations they find themselves in.)
I have gotten recent notes layered thick with “mock” apology - taking a very high-level (i.e. meaningless) responsibility for what went wrong - and pointing to “mistakes” that seemingly he’d want to believe happened centuries ago (and implying I can’t let go of these). In point of fact - all injuries I’ve pointed to - to have him address - are very recent. (No mention of these, of course.) There is still this wish on his part - that I’d just see that all those “mistakes” are long in the past - and we now have the “all clear” to just move forward.
Of course, these note never answer back or rebut anything I’ve “specifically” mentioned or pointed out or questioned outright. No, they talk all around the “key points.” And always in platitudes and generalities. Always what he wanted for us - but never about what he actually did (or did not do) to achieve what he wanted. Its like he’s planted a flower bed - right on top of a garbage dump and wants me now to forget all about the garbage dump - and focus only on the pretty flowers growing there. Hey, I’m all for forgiving and forgetting - when someone clearly makes amends - I don’t think he realizes how I was ROOTING for him to win. I gave him lots of lots of time - and lots and lots of chances. No, I WANTED him to win. In the end, the joke was on me.
Also, the key behavior of these types like my ex that are more “stealth” in their techniques is backsliding and reneging on promises. He would just put the burden on me, always, to challenge when he wasn’t doing what he said he’d do. Always making me the one that is “rocking the boat” or not letting things have a chance.
It got to the point, where even in a given conversation, I could detect when backsliding had already begun. He’d start to indicate - ever so slightly - that there might be a particular problem with carrying out - that which he just offered! The most confounding behavior of all - in the many reconciliations we tried - was the “amnesia” that would set in - once we resumed. It was like none of what had happened previously need be mentioned, thought about or actively addressed. He just lost total view of the context in which we were operating. It seemed I’d always be in a position of “reminding” him from whence we came. Then I’d get this sort of stupefied look and sort of a groan like - oh, we have to rehash that again! His whole approach was wrong. Instead of coming back each time and making it very visible how he was changing his ways, and making good on his promises, he did exactly the opposite. Went back to old habits, complacency and just defied me to challenge him and be the “squeaky wheel” a role he knew I abhorred.
I ended up having a pet name for him (which I kept mostly to myself). I called him the ” coulda-shoulda-woulda man.” Because he never did the right thing “in the moment.” He’d leave me crying - knowing I was hurt and needing him to stay to comfort. But no, it was always “out the door” and home for him. Then the email the next day . . . “gosh, I am sure you must have been hurting. I am sorry I really “should have” stayed to talk with you. I wish I “could have” thought of a way to help. I “would have” liked to have though. Can you let me do that now.
It was all these “can you let me do that nows” that kept me in so long.
I think - strange to say - part of why I’ve stayed in is almost a sick fascination - a curiosity - to see if he would ever- just once - give any indication that he has a serious illness that needs tending and fixing. His ability to hurt others - and then to turn around and hurt them again (mostly women, of course) - is just alarming and I have told him so. I would look at him and ask him why it does not cause him “sleepless” nights or similar. He just really could never come up with a good (suprisingly, not even a “slick”) answer - except to say - well of course, I have my own way of dealing with things. That’s for sure - the way is - to not deal with them at all, to deny the problem - and then find someone new who will “play along” with him till she bumps into the undeniable reality that he can only go so far into intimacy - before he has to cut-out of there, literally cut out, or stay in and make you crazy because he’ll want you to believe he’s open to intimacy - when in fact he is not.
In any event, I think the reason why we can no longer be together - is he is exposed - and I will not play along any longer and it makes for an excruciating experience for him. All the fun is gone. The compliant, complacent cheerful one he remembered from before - well - she just doesn’t show up anymore. My value to him - is all but done.
If I would have played along with him - we could have kept it all going probably indefinitely - he would give me his shallow “pseudo” apologies from here to eternity as he carried on his non-monogamous life - which he says - is anything but - as he’s always finding one of his many “legal loopholes” for why - technically - it really wasn’t cheating.
Finally, he just wore me down. He wants to believe he just “flubbed-up” and made a few bad mistakes - nothing more than that - and he’s not hearing it any other way!
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debbie116
I have just been reading all the comments since my last one and am amazed at all these people struggling with the same issues as I do. I want to say to Pamela your ex is of course a loser and you must stay clear of him. My ex has been bombarding me with lengthy letters.I changed my phone numbers and he wrote that now letter writing was the only way he can communicate with me. All the letters are designed to make me feel guilty, including reminding me of good times, telling me what a wonderful person he is and how I will regret it if I don’t let him back. No mention of the lies he told or his behaviour etc.
What interests me is why we have got caught up with these people. I spent several months in therapy when I broke up from my last husband 6 years ago. Although not as bad as my latest husband he still preffered to go out womanising and drinking than spend time with me, but I always lived for the good times.
I thought I had come to conclusions after my therapy, and I thought I was cured!! I even read self-help books.
My Dad is a difficult person, so maybe I am used to coping with the unpredictable. As has been said its also about self esteem. I feel there is more though. There is also the thing about guilt. Do we feel guilt more easily than others? Are we quicker to blame ourselves? Sometimes I find myself thinking what if?
Also I am interested at the persistence of my ex. All the different ways he has tried to get to me. Isn’t this like the way torturers eventually get to their victims? As Dr Carver says ‘No contact’ is best but very difficult when there are children involved, especially as father’s have rights to see their children. I’m sure this is why my ex was so desperate to have a child with me.
I hope Brooke is managing to stay strong.
I’m finding this site is helping to keep me sane! -
Skyla115
Dr Carver,
I have been following all of your advice, but my ex is extremely persistent and is not giving up. I feel like a punching bag. He is breaching his restraining order, but I am too scared to tell the police because of what he and his family will do, and I am scared they will take my son away. There is no one else who can do pick ups and drop offs and no contact centres to go to. It’s just me. I cant do this anymore. I keep saying to him to find a 3rd party to take our child but he refuses and says there is no one. I said to him I do not wish to ever see him again, and he said we have to for our child’s sake. I don’t want to!. I feel like i’m going crazy all over again.
I don’t know who to turn to because I have exhausted all the services in this area.
Dr Carver what can I do?. I really really do not want anymore contact with him ever again. I need me back again and my life.
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Wendy114
Hi, Robin,
I think you got lost in the shuffle back on page 10. If you feel fearful of your partner and if he has done such things as threatening your life and drugging your coffee, it is time to get away from him, possibly with outside help. Any agency such as your local police or hospital, or your doctor or your minister can connect you with some support to help you leave this situation.
As Dr. Carver describes in his article on the Stockholm Syndrome, a person can become very attached to his/her abuser, and become blind to the danger. But you have some idea, or you would not have posted. Talk to someone who can help you and you will find that they take you seriously.
~Wendy
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Wendy113
Hi, Pamela,
What a good account (of a bad situation)! I think you are the first participant to use the term “gaslighting” … the act of leading a (naive) person on. It really fits.
My “ML” showed real emotion too. On the occasion of my last visit, when he realized I had finally (at long last!) seen how vilely he was treating me, he became pale, tearful, and “lost”. Can a person fake pale? It lasted about 20 minutes, and I was even moved to comfort him (I gotta be me!).
But the next day it was all forgotten, and he was back to being Mr. Hyde, trying to humiliate me and play me against another person.
So, yes, there were many instances of “real” emotion, even strong emotion, and often positive emotion. But that did not make the relationship healthy. I believe that for many of these individuals, emotions, although certainly real, are much more fleeting than they are for the rest of us. Dr. Carver uses the word “superficial”. In a sense, their emotional experiences seem to have intensity, but no weight.
I can certainly relate to the conflicted feelings you describe, and to the fact that, since your situation has involved no verbal harshness, it can feel a little less clear-cut than some. But your description is vivid nonetheless. You summed it up so well at the end: that you did not feel honored. I think you have arrived at a “key”.
When I think about it, my family and friends have always made me feel honored. Ditto the jobs I have enjoyed.
Let’s all seek out situations and relationships that make us feel honored! Thanks, Pamela.
~Wendy
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Pamela112
I am sort of in this weird spot of feeling that I am desperately trying to validate for myself that my ex is a certifiable “loser” in order to proceed with no contact in the way I need to.
I keep reading these stories and anytime I see a thing that “FITS” - I seize upon the similarities and say “Yep” that’s it - he’s a certifiable loser! Good - I can now feel fine with no contact.
The very next moment I turn around and remember that I have actually seen and felt quite a lot of true emotion on his part - I’ve actually heard and seen the fear and terror in his manner and voice (the real kind not the “acting kind” which I have come to recognize) when he realizes that he is about to lose something he values. (I had actually previously kept a few of his voicemail archived as reminders of his inner “humanity” for those times I needed to remind myself - which turns out - was often.)
The upshot though - is I become absolutely torn again as I walk through the day-to-day aftermath of breaking with him (once again.) I am torn by the thought that he might still be on the cusp of that proverbial (but ever elusive) “breakthrough” or “conversion” - the one we all dream about and hope for. Or, worse still, that I am merely exaggerating his faults - can’t see the good stuff - that I am so wounded by his past “mistakes” that I can’t see how sincere his efforts are to makes things right with me. (Of course, he feeds-into the indecision and confusion on my part - in the most insidious way - as he knows that I am predisposed to want to believe him - to want to continue with him.)
Seems I so want to regain the person who was initially presented to me (or feel that feeling again - when in the throes of the powerful “connection” I felt I had with him - the same one I still feel everything we talk again.) I have subverted lots of my truer instincts and intuitions in order to “hold fast” to the barest thread of hope that I can regain something with him - seemingly something that was entirely FALSE to begin with. Still I find myself missing (despite all efforts not to) that false person - the one that left me with some very good memories, some very clingy memories.
I know that expecting this sort of “conversion” is naive and self-damaging (after all I’ve been waiting for more than a year for such to occur). However, I have had none of the verbal and belittling abuse that is described - so it has given me this false sense that I’ve not been “mistreated” or that the mistreatment is somehow “minor.” Instead it has always been this subtle (slow drip water torture) type of behavior that devalues me - time again - this “gaslighting” technique - a way of making me feel that I am being ungrateful for what he does to make things right with me - that I am holding on to past “mistakes” he has made. That I can’t see that he wants to rebuild what has been lost. That I’m just not letting things “mend” properly. Not giving him a chance.
I almost think this type of situation I’ve found myself in has been really worse than if his abuse were more out-front and obvious. It would have been so easy for me to discard him if he belittled me verbally, or attempted to control my life (instead, it is more like he’s “disinterested” in me once we resume again), mistreated me in more obvious ways (i.e. stood me up, didn’t phone me, disappeared for days on end, etc.) rather than this show steady devaluing he has done, while at the same time, feeling himself to be (and telling me outright that he is) very loving, and committed toward me. Ha!
The devaluing with him came in the way of behavior that was always completely incongruous with the words he speaks. He seemed always to want extradonary amounts of credit for just the fact that he showed up at all - almost as if he feels that is an end in itself. Lucky me to have even the smallest bit of him. It is not as though we didn’t have endless discussions of how I felt devalued and neglected by him - uncared for - it is just that he had an uncanny way of turning it around on me. And of course, admitting just enough ‘guilt” on his part to keep me in. And modifying his behavior in the most superficial ways - again - to keep me in. It was almost as if we were floating around in a lifeboat - one side of which had a gaping hole in it - the other a pinprick - and he spent time exclusively fixing the pinprick side - never mind the ship was bound to sink eventually from neglecting to fix what was really wrong (i.e. his own dishonest and false nature.)
The fact is, he had an affair that he initially did not reveal - instead he chose to dump me on a 10-minute phone call during my workday, with my kids in midst - with no prior warning at all! To the contrary we chit-chatted per normal all day long. (He did not own up to any affair of course, just said “oh-so sorry” it was so confusing to him that he would break with someone he “liked so much.” But oh well, These things happen. Click.)
Three day later he was back - promising to give more, confessing the infidelity, and then dumped me again, 2 days later. Called me the next day (in tears no less) begging me back. Telling me I had to “fight” for us. And on and on, for a year. I will spare the details of it all - though there are some amusing anecdotes for sure. (If you like “dark humor” that is.)
To this day - after a year of this - he has not taken the OBVIOUS remedy of entirely ceasing contact with the woman he cheated with. No, instead he continues (and has for an entire year) to frequent a meeting place where they both attend - and the place where the original infidelity took place. (Gaslighting at its best: ‘This is nothing I should be at all concerned about, he assures me, in his “oh-so-loving” way. I will call you when I am done with my meeting to reassure you. Nothing to worry about, nothing at all.) (Of course, the more OBVIOUS remedy would have been for me to never pick up the phone when he called. Whoops.)
The gaslighting technique he used throughout all these reconciliations made me always question my logic on things. He would tell me that of course - don’t you realize one can cheat anywhere, anytime - not just in this particular meeting space. Silly you - he seemed to be saying - the meeting place and the fact that she and I are together - is hardly the point. The point is - you have to trust me. Couldn’t I see that! How illogical I was!
Why I didn’t just tell to get off right then and there - is something I can’t explain. Why I am still writing about him (or wasting precious brain power) at all is something I can’t explain either.
So, I guess I don’t have a question - more of an observation or comment. Does it really matter - if my ex is a full board loser - or not. After all, I may never know. What I do know is I did not feel honored in any way by him, I felt unloved, disrespected, and constantly belittled. I also felt an immediate and large-scale anxiety every time I resumed with him.
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111
Dear Alika,
To keep you on back burner, Losers often engage in fishing. Like a professional fisherman, they try a variety of baits as mentioned by Mack, including guilt, insult, poor pitiful me, good time memories, questions about your mother, etc. They are trying to see what you’ll bite on. Like a fish, if you bite - you’re hooked! The Loser changes his/her strategy and techniques - some even tell you they’ve been diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis (heard that one last week), their mother is dying (three weeks ago), or that they heard a rumor about you (they actually made it up as a trick to get you to bite). Their goal is to get you into the boxing ring for another beating.Don’t react to anything said, emailed, messaged, etc. If the Loser somehow gains access to you, only say “Look, you’ve moved on and I’ve moved on. Good Luck (then walk away).”
As you recover, sit back and be entertained by the various lures this fisherman uses. Some may be very laughable and some may be very creative. Keep in mind however, a very funny hook will still hook a fish! Dr. Carver
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