Comments on “Psychologist’s Description of “The Loser” in Relationships Rings True”
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89 Responses to “Psychologist’s Description of “The Loser” in Relationships Rings True”
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70
Dear Mack: Great to hear from you. As you mention, it’s very important to recognize these “Loser” individuals early in a relationship because they can do a lot of damage to our self-esteem. Your experience also verifies that Losers frequently keep people on “back burner”, at times maintaining several relationships at a time. If we’re in a relationship and situations aren’t making sense, there’s typically something wrong. Life shouldn’t be that hard to understand.
I agree with your buddy - don’t waste time trying to figure it out. Healthy folks try to understand Losers using a “healthy perspective” such as why would they do that, how could they do that, etc. As personality disorders, Losers don’t think like that. Their narcissistic sense of entitlement (He only answers to God!) allows them to use and manipulate anyone in anyway. Being confronted doesn’t correct them, it just annoys them.
Your life is more valuable than to waste time. In life we have a collection of wonderful experiences…and those on the other end of the scale. You’ve collected one on the other end. Losers often use the “You’re dead to me” as a final insult when the relationship ends. In truth, Losers are emotionally dead and will always have their own personal misery to live with. Due to their mistreatment of others, I’d like to be there when they meet the Almighty and they’re told “You’re Dead to Me!”.
Good luck in your new life. Dr. Carver -
Mack69
Hey Dr. Carver — I figured you were due for an update, lol.
So I found out that back when my ex apparently had no time for me for more than 6 weeks, he had plenty of time to chat up at least two other young ladies (that I know of), and pursue at least one of them to the degree that he’d begun calling her wifey. Cracking, eh? Not that you’re surprised or anything! After I’d decided to draw my line, I had heard a rumor about this, but had had no way to verify it and so did nothing at all. But then a couple weeks ago, one of the young ladies contacted me, we had a chat, and it all came out. She says she didn’t know about me, and given her shock/anger, I believe her. So I suppose it does give me an answer re. what his silences and distances were all about, even if the answer hasn’t come directly from him (and, no, I no longer expect it to). By the way, the young lady did contact him after we spoke; her decision. All he did was sidestep all of her questions and say he didn’t have to answer to anybody but God — and then basically tell her she was dead to him. Classic, no? I’m sorry she went through that; no one deserves it. But I’m also glad I stopped my own train before it reached that station; it could have been a lot worse.
But you know what’s most frustrating? There’s now no way for me to tell what in our relationship was real and what was fiction, because he’s betrayed it all. And not being able to distinguish fact from fiction is incredibly annoying, lol. But one of my buddies told me not to try parsing it, because I really won’t ever know, and I’ll need all my energy for the rest of my life. He’s right. So there’s my update! I’m doing ok really. Keeping busy. :-)
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68
Dear Leslie: Clumsy refers to a strategy that is haphazard, poorly coordinated, moving toward something but frequently off track, and uses a lot of energy and movement with minimal positive results. As you have observed, the current strategy to deal with Mom is fairly random - full of calls, contacts, permissions, maybes, disappointments, manipulations and only-if-you-do-this arrangements. The goal is to eventually have a predictable, business-only relationship as far as Mom is concerned. “Visitation”
As you describe, Mom is now uping the ante by revealing her feelings. This will begin an entirely new episode of drama and manipulation. Mom will flame the daughter’s reconciliation fantasies (divorced children have those), then blame Dad for being cold and rejecting, and again depict herself as a helpless victim. Remember, Mom will intrusively act to keep herself at the center of the family drama. It may be the only excitement in her life at this point.Planning a strategy in this case has more to do with the daughter - the Mom is always predictable. Does the daughter want to fix this situation or is she comfortable in this drama? Will the daughter protest if Dad changes the rules? Is the daughter enabling Mom’s drama?
Can Dad and D agree that they need to have a two-person relationship, not a three-person with Mom?
As you know, your official and formal entry in to the drama as Dad’s partner will create another episode of drama. Mom must react in some manner once she finds out. The way Dad describes your relationship may modulate the melodrama: “We’re seeing each other” = moderate drama while “We’re sweethearts” = get ready for anything!You’ll probably need to sit with Dad and discuss the team strategy. He may be unwilling to change anything, especially if the D is not supportive. The D may not be mature enough to challenge the “rule” of Mom or want to risk the wrath of Mom.
I’d recommend seeking counseling as you have so many issues that change week to week here. As I mentioned, you’re entering something in a transition. You need to protect yourself and your sanity as you explore your options for a relationship with the Dad. Dr. Carver
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Leslie67
Dear Dr. Carver,
Oh my gosh, please accept my apology - I meant to start my entry above with:
“Dear Dr. Carver,”
Sincerely,
Leslie -
Leslie66
I apologize that it has been a couple weeks since I got your wonderful response. Your insight has been amazing, and thank you SO VERY MUCH for this help!! I took some time to digest everything that is going on, take in some new information about the situation, spend some more time with dad (he lives 1000+ miles away), and figure out a way to succinctly communicate all of this to you. (Just as an FYI, mom DID get him fired from his job around the time of their divorce – you were right on and she probably is Borderline.)
FYI my original entry and your response was on April 10 (for a quick skim/review of the background and parties involved before moving on to the below.)
I do have some more questions, since I have spent some more time with dad, I do believe that he will be open to some insight and suggestions, and maybe even an exit plan if you can help with that. He tells me that I am one of the best friends he has regarding this and values my opinions. He doesn’t really talk to people, even his own family, about these issues because they become such a burden and constant drama.
Firstly, I must say unfortunately dad and daughter aren’t at the point where they have discussed any strategies for dealing with mom, and daughter’s loyalties still lie with mom. She is away at school, so it does distance her a bit, but mom makes trips to daughter’s school very frequently. If mom is not happy or accommodated/appeased by dad, daughter may also alienate/avoid communication with dad for a while, saying she is ‘busy’ etc (seeming to indirectly ‘punish’ him,) so I am not sure if it is accurate to say that daughter and dad are protecting each other from borderline mom, since they do not have dialogue concerning this and daughter may not even realize that mom’s behavior is so outlandish since she’s been kept isolated and is not exposed to ‘normal’ behavior in adults. Her entire life she’s been isolated, and makes/loses friends at school easily according to dad. Dad says there were times that he was daughter’s best/only friend some years at high school.
Also, daughter does not know that dad and I have begun to see each other again – but may find out soon - the last she knew of me was that 4 years ago when he and I were dating, then she became suicidal and dad started to visit her (and mom by default) every other weekend, and I dropped out of the picture; all of his attention focused on her and by default some on mom too. He just told her that ‘things didn’t work out’ between me & him.
So far he does not have an ‘exit plan’ or strategy, he just is continuing the status quo (even though daughter is over 18 now) and knows mom is always looking for a fight, and is avoiding that. This is the formula that he has become used to, but he gets little to no communication from the daughter when mom is not happy. Despite that dad and daughter have bonded, daughter’s loyalties still lie with mom, it seems.
Mom has created dad and daughter’s relationship to be such that he is always painfully longing and aching to see/spend time with/communicate with his daughter. Whenever he requests a trip or visit with daughter in a manner that appeases mom, she gives him glimmers of hope that he ‘might’ be able to, and then drags it out until the last day before the trip or visit, then either approves or disproves, you never know which way it is going to go until last minute. This keeps him pining away for daughter, never having definite plans or answers, and constantly at mom’s mercy.
During the last few years in his efforts to rescue his daughter from suicide, some of the time he was able to spend with his daughter also had to be shared with the mother. He accommodated whatever crazy requests, complaints, etc. that mom put out and acted kind and compassionate towards her (which greatly taps his energy but he does it with a smile for his daughter) he says its gotten much easier after giving up all control and just giving her whatever she asks no matter how ridiculous. He also generously decided it would be good/healthy for the daughter to see that they could all sit together in a civilized manner, over dinner for example, and be ‘civilized’ towards one another. He did this because he wanted to be a good role model and make a good impression on the daughter. Unfortunately, it also fed mom’s desire to spend time with him and now mom is becoming attached to dad again. So dad’s time in town with daughter became more and more frequent, and mom often tried to make it so that they would all 3 spend time together, for example, when he invited daughter to a show mom said she would only say ok if it was all 3 of them, (so he said no so they didn’t go); also he got to spend a Christmas with daughter, on this one he agreed and spent it with mom too, he did so, but wasn’t too happy about it.
This year it turned out that practically every time dad wanted to visit daughter for a weekend at school, mom ended up going that same time, so dad didn’t go because he didn’t want to be with both of them together.
So, guess what, now there is a new twist. Mom just shared with dad, a few weeks ago, during that same 2-hour phone conversation that I told you about when he asked mom permission if he could take daughter on a trip and she came up with a bunch of excuses why they couldn’t, that she still has ‘feelings’ for him.
Apparently mom has been sharing these ‘feelings’ with the daughter this year while she’s been at school, and daughter told mom that “she needs to tell him.” So mom told him. It was no surprise to him since he had already told me 4 years ago that mom probably had in the back of her mind a hope that they may someday get back together. He said that during their conversation she kept saying “and I know you don’t have feelings for me” over and over. He expressed to her that he did not. He told me that ‘feels sorry for her, and says it sounds like she doesn’t have much of a life.’
He was also hesitant to share this information with me because he knew I’d be concerned. I do appreciate that. What do you think? What do I need to know? What don’t I need to know? He has no exit strategy, and has not envisioned one yet at this point (I asked). And that is what concerns me. Everything seems to still be in limbo-land.
He also fears that our relationship will become all about that subject if we spend too much time talking about it, and our relationship will suffer. That may be a true, but how can we not discuss it when it seems to drive everything he does? What do you think? He still engages with her, allows her to control anything having to do with daughter including interacting &communicating with her, and then every time a disappointment or drama ensues with his ability to see his daughter or if daughter is not communicating with him, he suddenly becomes ‘colder’, more distant and less frequent in his communication towards ME. The problem with this is when he does that so suddenly I have no idea that it is the x-wife that is what’s causing him to be distant towards me. I sit there wondering if his feelings for me have changed, if I am crazy, imagining things, and just boggling my mind as to why his affections towards me have changed and why he is being unusually cold. All of a sudden just stops calling/sending me texts after consistently having done so daily with lots of spontaneity, fun, and interest/attention, and just stops. It makes me feel sad, insecure, and too embarrassed to say anything because when it happens I don’t know what is going on and he doesn’t let me know that something has happened on the other end that is causing it- so I think it’s about me, or his loss if interest in me. He avoids disclosing anything while trying to protect our relationship from the drama. He just keeps it to himself, but it still indirectly affects his ability to be consistent with me. I begin to feel alienated, sad, and helpless because we live over 1000 miles apart. What do I do to deal with this? I don’t feel it’s fair to keep me in the dark, so I need some insight to what is appropriate for me to know about their communications.
So the current “asking her permission’, and ‘letting her think she still has control’ involves continuing the ‘friendly relations’ with mom, which means continuing to be subject to open conversations with her where mom can bring up & talk & ask about anything she wants, including the latest of telling him she still has feelings for him, and dad always has to ‘make nice and respond in a way that will appease her. When dad asks permission, even if for something small, like a 2 day trip a year in advance - mom will never say yes – only ‘maybe’… and then has him on edge right up until the last minute- literally the day before a trip or visit is supposed to happen and when costs are outrageous. Then she will change it by a day or so to complicate travel plans and increase costs, and then will make her final yes/no decision based on whatever is either going to serve her most or upset/cost him the most. This happens with practically every request he makes – no matter how big or small – she never allows him the ability to ‘plan’ on time with daughter – it is always a ‘maybe’ and then taken to the midnight hour with lots of conversations & ridiculous requests until the day its supposed to happen. So, if this ‘strategy’ of asking her permission continues, this insane hurtful drama is always going to continue and keep him and daughter in this sticky entangled web of hers that only keeps total uncertainty and pain going.
Since dad is open to my opinions on this, I could REALLY use your insight on:
- In what ways is the current strategy as you mentioned in your earlier response ‘clumsy’? What specifically?
- How can the method be improved?
- What is an example of a good exit strategy for their situation, step by step, given the new info?
- Should dad and I keep our relationship from daughter as well as mom? (If daughter finds out, mom will dig for information.) Or should a convo occur with daughter about how to keep things from mom?
- What communications about mom should dad and daughter have, what agreements should be made between them?
- What limits/boundaries should be set with mom and dad? Mom and daughter?
- Should he reveal his wish to separate completely from mom?
- Is dad helping the daughter (or anyone) in the long run by continuing the interactions and still engaging with mom, and the charade of letting her think she can still control and plays such a big influence in his life? Is there another way, now that daughter is 18+?- Will there ever be a way to plan a ‘set’ block of time that dad can make travel and visiting plans with daughter? (Like a custody arrangement should have been all along!) Because if it doesn’t, mom will always have control – this is her M.O. to still keep dad in her power.
- Any advice, assessment, insight of any of the above content is welcome and greatly appreciated!!I appreciate your help is SO MUCH, and look forward to hearing from you. I am forever grateful for the help you are giving to me and all the other people whose stories I read in your threads!
Sincerely,
Leslie -
65
Dear Linda, Glad to be of help. Good luck as you recover from your journey. Dr. Carver
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Linda64
Thank you Dr. Carver you are a very kind person to take the time to help so many people. i just needed someone to tell me what I know in my heart is ture. Thank you for saving me from myself. Linda
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63
Dear Linda: We can put a shark in our backyard pool - give it plenty to eat, protect it, and love it with all our heart - and it will still eat us! Loving someone doesn’t protect us from who they really are. If he hits all 20 signs, he’s likely an antisocial or criminal personality. He didn’t spend 12+ years in prison for littering.
You’ve had trouble with “emotional memory”. This situation arises at high school reunions, meeting old lovers after many years, and receiving that “blast from the past” email. You have very strong memories from the pre-prison romance and his return into your life activated them - as though he was never gone. These are powerful memories yet in reality, you don’t even know him…and by your report, didn’t really know him well in the first romance. Seeing any “old flame” or ex-partner can bring up very warm and exciting emotional memories and many people get into trouble during these times. We are especially sensitive to the temptation of emotional memories when we are experiencing life changes, are depressed, or high stress levels.
Keep in mind, he went to prison before this latest adventure. You didn’t create his behavior or personality in any way. In truth, he’s probably used your support to transition or work his way back into the community from prison. When you state you didn’t “surrender” to the relationship - it’s likely because there never was a true relationship - just a young person’s memories and fantasies of an early romance. While emotional memories are exciting and appealing, they’re somewhat empty and don’t contain the foundation for a true relationship. Fantasies about flying a plane don’t contain the knowledge of how to get one started.
If he’s 20 of 20, he will damage your life. At the same time, you will also have guilt due to the confusion of the situation - leaving your husband and maybe family, the social embarrassment of the situation, damage to your finances, etc. I’d recommend a counselor to help with damage control.
If you give him a try…you’ll be sorry. Probably worse. If he’s 20 of 20, he’s use you up and move on quickly. If you’ve made your break…stay gone and try to repair yourself and your social situation. You’ve been on a dark journey here and this may require a lot of time to repair. Don’t make it worse by chasing emotional memories. By the way, I have a handout on emotional memories on my website at http://www.drjoecarver.com that will help explain how our memories can be dangerous to us.
I hope this reply is helpful. Dr. Carver -
Linda62
Dr. Carver,
My sistuation is a little complicated and I will try to summarize as to be brief. I have known my boyfriend for over 20 years (since 1985) and we were lovers for serveral years before he went to prison in 1993. I am currently married to a my husband of 17 years and that relationship has always been a healthy and loving union. I know there are some serious issues at hand here!!
The problem started when my boyfriend was released from prison last May and I left my marriage to live with him. Mostly because of the long separation it was just unbearable to not be togeteher once he came home. My boyfriend and I had never really had a relationshiop and to be honest we didn’t really know each other very well.
Anyway we started living togeteher and I asked my husband for a divorce which we have had a very friendly separation since July. Even though I had lied to him for 20 years he still loves me and doesn’t want a divorce.
Very early in the relationship with my boyfriend things started to happen such as hair pulling, jelous rages, telling me how to act, what to wear etc.. He pretty much hits on all 20 of your warning signs. I knew in my heart of hearts there was something terribly wrong with our relationship but I felt he had issues from prison and tried to give him some leeway. I bought a house and we moved there in January. Pretty much I have paid for everyhting with my credit even though he has been generous with gifts and helping me pay bills.
Then I found your list on the internet and realized this man is going to ruin my life so I left my home last Saturday and went to my parents and text messaged him that I didn’t love him anymore and I wanted him out. He left and hasn’t been to the house since then. He emailed me yesterday the typical BS yeaterday about me being the love of his life and so on. My problem is I feel like I never “surrendered” myself to that relationship and maybe I was partly to blame for some of his behaviors since I have never realy given up on my marriage. i just feel that I longed for him all those years he was in prison and now I should at least give him a chance or I’ll be sorry.
I want to remain strong but guilt and doubt are starting to creep in and I want to be sure I have done what is best for me. I know the answer to this question but I really need someone to explain why I should keep him out of my life. Thank You so much for your help. Linda
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kristina61
Thank you again for your comments. It boggles my mind that a so-called adult human being can purposefully and consciously use “tactics” such as your warning signs and still be able to live with themselves, and not even care one way or the other. It’s almost like they have no soul or heart…that they are made of stone. My mistake is I try to rationalize (or explain) his behavior, but there is no rational for someone who is incapable of being rational. Thank you!
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