Comments on “Psychologist’s Description of “The Loser” in Relationships Rings True”
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89 Responses to “Psychologist’s Description of “The Loser” in Relationships Rings True”
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40
Dear Erin: Our family background “programs” our tolerance of situations. If we grew up in a violent and hell-raisin’ family - we develop a high tolerance for that behavior and will stay in very violent relationships because they don’t seem much different than what we’ve experienced. Your traumatic background has expanded your tolerance for unusual relationships - so wide in fact that you’re now accepting and tolerating TOO much. With your background, you also feel hesitant to confront these situations because of low self-esteem. You’re now having difficulty determining if your feelings, reactions, and concerns are NORMAL. Healthy folks are concerned when a dating partner professes love and continues to contact an ex. That’s a normal reaction.
You need to work on narrowing your tolerance for unusual situations, ususual people, and unusual histories. While you may understand a fellow who is alcoholic, abusive, is on the most-wanted law list and thinks he’s Elvis…you must realize a normal and emotionally healthy relationship with him is highly unlikely. If you have a counselor, ask yourself what he/she would think of the situation, assuming the counselor is healthy of course. Imagine a committee of three very logical, healthy, relationship-successful folks and imagine their reaction to situations you encounter. This will save you a lot of grief in the future. If you want advice and guidence, obtain it from people successful in the area of question. Don’t ask a person with no money how to be a millionaire.
Your current relationship has some risk by your description. You may want to enjoy casual dating while you fix your wide-boundaries issue.
Your meds are fine by the way and your current concern is valid - not a manifestation of any psychiatric issue. I would recommend reviewing my article on Emotional Memory on my website at http://www.drjoecarver.com It address problems with horrible childhoods or traumatic memories. Oh…the website may not be online for a few days. I recently rebuilt it and it’s in the process of being placed online at this time.
Hope these comments are helpful. Dr. Carver -
Erin39
I feel I was “the loser” in my past relationships. Reading your article described several of my hopefully reformed behaviors. I wouldn’t say I’m cured, but I feel I’ve matured and grown emotionally over the last year or so.
I have a history of severe abuse from my mother. When I was 14, she was murdered by her husband who later killed himself. My life has been one confusing mess after another… and I had to kill myself emotionally to function.
I have two past relationships where I clearly was the loser. I feel horrible, reading your article and seeing the signs in myself. The circumstances of the relationships were awkward, though. At 18 I dated a 36 year old police officer. I moved in with him immediately, we were engaged a year later and I acted like a spoiled, rotten child. In retrospect, I can see that I was seeking attention I was deprived of as a child. That relationship ended when I was 22.
After that one I didn’t jump right into another. I found a man who inspired me and taught me many things. After about 2 months of dating he suggested we begin a polyamorous relationship. I was hesitant, but went along with it for the sake of keeping him around. It was wonderful at first, but I moved in with him and let my insecurities and history control my behavior, slowly taking a wonderful friendship and turning it into a horrid 3 years… for both of us. I feel the polyamory played a major role in the demise of that bond. It made for a confusing, deceitful and hurtful relationship on both ends. Again, I was much younger than he.
I’ve had an array of DSM diagnoses thrown at me: severe depression, borderline personality disorder, ADD, possibly bipolar. I am currently on wellbutrin SR and take xanax as needed for panic attacks. I am moderately agoraphobic and have a tendency to ruminate and worry myself needlessly. I have some severe issues, but I’ve worked through them quite extensively, with therapists, inpatient and intensive outpatient psychiatric treatment and meds.
I feel I’ve improved a great deal over the last year but I’m afraid of repeating cycles. I am in a relationship now and have been since August of last year. I’ve taken it very slow. We live seperate lives, spend most of our time together on the weekends. I don’t find myself feeling abandoned or threatened or anything I’ve felt from past lovers. We’re both a little damaged, but relationship-wise it seems healthy. I don’t see the relationship moving any farther than our casual dating at this point, which gives me hope that maybe I’m healing and maybe I’m a better person these days. But I still have my doubts… he’s admitted he is still in love with an ex-girlfriend, whom he still has contact with. I admit I have checked his cell phone a few times, first out of curiosity, only to find that he has regular contact with his ex. It jolted me into that panic mode… because it seems like something he’s hiding from me. BUT… I have made an enormous effort to keep my behavior in check. It’s a matter of trust in this case, which is something I have very little of… in any instance. I do not want to give him the altimatum of “her or me” because that seems unfair. I do not want to deprive him of things and people he enjoys for selfish reasons.
Do you have any suggestions? What is your take?
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38
Dear Barbara: Way to Go! Now, a word of caution. Losers, especially Antisocial folks, are manipulators and con-artists. It’s highly likely that he will recontact you in the near future and the discussion will be amazing. He’ll offer to “forgive” you for treating him so poorly and profess that he’s had a change of heart. He may apologize for cursing you and offer to allow you to reenter the relationship with him. He may graciously allow you back on HIS island.
Don’t fall for it. Instead, be entertained by the Loser strategies you hear and then stand your ground and keep your distance.
Right now, he’s “punishing” you for your confrontation. He thinks you’ll still be on back burner when he calls and offers you probation for your crimes.
I may be wrong. He might not call again. But…my five bucks is on a recontact after an appropriate amount of punishment.
We’ll see….. Dr. Carver -
37
Dear Leslie: Your assessment is basically correct…with an additional diagnosis. The ex is clearly a personality disorder. As such, we have “Queens of Drama” such as Histrionic Personality. We also have the “Queens of Dangerous Drama” or Borderline Personality. The ex exhibits signs of Borderline Personality with her use of suicide and self-harm threats, arrests, and behaviors that can seriously threaten a person’s life, career, and finances. She has little concern for how her outlandish behavior may harm others, including her daughter.
Dealing with this type of personality not only creates Stockholm Syndrome but the repeated dangerously-dramatic episodes are emotionally traumatizing. It’s highly likely that Dad and daughter also have Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder or PTSD. Twenty years of traumatic memory - arrests, threats, court battles, accusations, intimidations, etc. - are remembered each time the Ex calls or threatens.
Dad and daughter are both spending much of their time protecting each other from Borderline Mom. As he mentions, Dad knows if he upsets his ex that his daughter will pay…and not just pay with a temper tantrum. Borderline folks have few boundaries and typically hold their family and friends hostage with threats of dramatic action. The movie “Fatal Attraction” depicts the impact of a Borderline Personality on a family system.
On the positive side, Dad and daughter seem to be developing strategies to deal with Mom. While their strategies are clumsy at first, they are trying to determine the best approach to maintain their relationship in the face of potential outlandish behavior from Mom.
So far, their strategy seems to be 1) allow Mom to think she has some say or get permission, 2) anticipate issues that will prompt a dangerous reaction from Mom, 3) work on maintaining their relationship at the same time. 4) Setting boundaries for Mom and for their types of communication to Mom. In theory, over time their relationship will return to almost-normal while they maintain Mom’s illusion that she has control.
From your perspective, you are considering entering a strategy and reunification (Dad and daughter) in progress. You would need some input into their strategy. For example: 1) All information provided to Mom by any source should be mutually approved. 2) Dad might want to read my Emotional Memory article at http://www.drjoecarver.com to address his history of emotional trauma. 3) Both Dad and daughter should understand the need to keep you safe. 4) Everyone needs to recognize the difference between understanding a dysfunctional situation VERSUS living in it. If we understand it, we develop a strategy, much like working in a stressful job. The strategy is turned off when we’re not in the wild situation, allowing us to stay emotionally healthy and continue healthy relationships.
As in most situations, there are complex factors here that are best worked out in a counseling situation. If Dad is interested, the two of you could participate in counseling to increase the effectiveness of the group strategy.
Hope this helps. Dr. Carver -
36
Dear Tasha, Congrats on your new freedom and new identity. Several winter seasons ago I had a client walk two miles in ten-inch snow to her appointment. She told me her automobile was fine and she had cab money…but over the weekend she noticed something amazing - “I noticed I was walking with my head up!” She had been walking on eggshells for many years and with her new freedom and life - her head came up. She walked to enjoy the view.
After many years in an abusive or controlling relationship, we often don’t see how we’ve changed our behavior to survive. Our friends and family notice, but we often don’t. You’ll find surprises every day in your thinking, your relief, and your attitude.
Glad to be of help. Dr. Carver -
barbara35
Dr. Carver,
You are the best!
I got a text message on my phone from him yesterday saying I had promised to call him and see how I was just trying to upset him!!!! I replied that actually the agreement was that he would call me….he then let me know he has no credit on his phone to call me(pathetic)….so I replied I had none either!! anyway, after copious texts, I bit the bullet and said he needed to find a woman that made him happy, obviously I didn’t…I turned the whole thing around and was as nice as pie. He got the message eventually and ended by cursing me and telling me it is always all about me and he is leaving the island we live on….
I think he is a text book case…and his anger made it easier for me because now, through your guidance, I know I’m right!
Thanks. -
Leslie34
Hello Dr. Carver,
Firstly let me thank you in advance for the amazing work that you are doing. You are helping so many people, and I applaud you tremendously for it.
I spent a good amount of time reading through your posts in order to get some insight into my personal situation, but since I didn’t see any similar enough, so I hope you can help or give me some insight so that I can make some informed & wiser decisions regarding my future to be with (or maybe without) a particular man in my life. I have known him for 10 years, years ago we dated but are friends now, and I am trying to make some decisions regarding re-entering a relationship with him.
After reading your article, I am convinced he has a case of Stockholm Syndrome, would never admit this is the case, and the “Loser” (fits everything as you’ve described) is his ex-wife. I believe another unfortunate victim is their 19-year old daughter, who is now away at college in her freshman year.
They have been divorced for 12 years. This relationship started 20 years ago via her threat of suicide every time he tried to break up with her – she got pregnant. She has always used threats, (even had him arrested so she could gain sole custody), intimidation, ludicrous demands, and worst of all, used their daughter, to control him. Now that the daughter is 18+, the mother can no longer legally do anything, so it is all psychological now, and unfortunately he seems to be falling for it – now that it’s just the time when he finally has the opportunity to set some limits with this wicked person!
He continues to allow the mother to pull the strings in controlling his relationship with his daughter; it even seems that he is now feeding/enabling her ridiculous behavior – just at the moment when he finally has a chance to be ‘done’ with having to deal with her at all – which is something he’s been talking and dreaming about for 15 years - his ‘moment’ has come! But maybe now his mind has been so been warped and ‘trained’ by the 20 years of surrendering his will to hers for the sake of being able to spend time with his daughter, that it seems as though he’s just continuing to ‘keep the cycle going’ because maybe it’s all he knows, he is still scared of her, he feels ‘sorry’ for her, or Stockholm Syndrome? What do you think? He is convinced he’s doing his daughter a favor by taking the continued irrational banter from the mother – despite that he’s been saying for 15 years he wants nothing to do with her - if it weren’t for his daughter this would be the case – but he thinks that he’s lightening his daughter’s load by continuing this. Is he???
His entire adult life has been dedicated to the psychological battle for access to his daughter. Around 1997 or so he gave up all rights to after years of horrible custody battles, which were tearing the daughter apart. The ex-wife used the daughter throughout her childhood to attack him, and brainwashed her against him at a very early age.
Here are some facts:
- Around 1987, at age 22, he tried to break up with her (girlfriend/ ‘the loser’) several times, she threatened suicide every time
- She got pregnant, had their child in another city, and told him it belonged to someone else, and sued the other guy for child support
- Showed up 1 year later said child was his, sued him
- When child was age 3, he proposed marriage and married her out of desire to ‘make things work for the child’s sake,’ and to ‘do the right thing.’ He says he did not have any regrets later in life
- They were married for a turbulent 3 years, divorced around 1994
- He was set up by wife while he was seeking divorce, she got neighbors and police involved; hostile court battles went on for six years (custody battles never settled due to ex-wife’s attacks and malicious charges)
- Mother maliciously brainwashed child against him for battle, daughter kicked at him and screamed horrible names at him
- Finally after 3+ years of court war, he decided to give up parental rights since it was tearing child apart and court would not rule on a decision
- He surrendered complete control to ex-wife, always paid child support, took any opportunity he got to see daughter (she always made it as difficult as possible, creating any sort of painfully malicious scene possible, including calling the police and accusing ‘kidnapping’, but would usually allow one or two short visits with him per year
- Her malicious behavior has still gone to this day, and is based on whatever is going to make his life the most difficult
- She never remarried but has had boyfriends
- He has spent last 8 or so years ‘giving her all the power’ (despite inner hatred for her), since decided no other strategy worked. Always tries to present an ‘even keel’ composure to her so she never gets the satisfaction of seeing when she’s ‘gotten a rise out of him’,(though she always does.) He decided that this is what’s best for everyone, including daughter.
- After years of anger and hostility, eventually turned it into ‘forgiveness’ behavior, which consists of ‘taking her abuse,’ saying ‘yes’ to any ridiculous request or demand that she dreams up, pretending to be empathetic towards her, putting a ‘smile on face,’ all the while being abused and victimized. Just giving in, because he knew that it was the only way he’d get to potentially increase time spent any time with daughter
- Daughter was socially isolated by this woman as a teenager in home/apartment with a mother who is emotionally dependent on her, depressed, etc.
- He devoted all his free time and energy into trying to form a relationship with daughter, was able to communicate more often with daughter in teen years via e-mail, daughter finally warmed up to him, a little around age 14 started going on summer trips with him
- Mother began to allow more frequent visits, but always inserted high levels of difficulties, intense drama, manipulation, control tactics. Her goal still to make his life as difficult as possible, but since he started being so ultra-nice to her she began opening some more doors to the daughter (and possibly had secret hopes herself that she and he might rekindle something)
- He always let his daughter make all the decisions, etc when he was with her, so as to avoid any potential ‘trouble’ or conflict with the mother. He gave the daughter/teenager total power as well
- Daughter became depressed, medicated, and eventually suicidal at age 15
- Mother began to allow more frequent visits – almost every other weekend between age 15-17; he devoted his entire life to that relationship with his daughter for last few years
- He has been celibate for over 5 years, never remarried, doesn’t date, and puts the energy into his relationship with his daughter, even though they have lived in different states for 8 or so years
- Daughter and dad finally formed positive and permanent bond over the last few years during her depression and suicidal tendencies; he got to spend almost every other weekend with her during this time; now she is in first year away at college, which he is funding (but no longer pays child support to the mother)
- Mother still at every opportunity calls the shots - creating ridiculous situations, drama, psychological warfare, and places demands on him, despite that the daughter is out of the house, 19 years old, and they have been divorced for 10 years… the drama continues. The mother manipulates and controls ex-husband AND the daughter and their relationship.Some of my questions to you are:
He still goes to the mother for any ‘permission’ to do anything with daughter, even though he and the daughter have formed a positive and DIRECT relationship, exclusive of mother. Mother still sucks his time and energy into petty things, like several hours conversations with all the (ridiculous) reasons why daughter shouldn’t go on a trip with him (which she has been able to do yearly the last few years) asking him about his financials, etc, just continuing the control, manipulation, and drama. Daughter expressed to him she wants to go on this trip and even asked him to talk to the mom about it (this is a HUGE step!) So he did, and after lots and lots of mom’s excuses and double talk about why daughter shouldn’t go, (she also added that she “can’t stop her,”) he and the daughter conversed and mutually decided not to go on their trip, since they don’t want to cause ‘waves’ with the mom and would feel a negative cloud of energy if they went on their trip. I think this is a shame. Isn’t this setting them up for a future of continued manipulation? Shouldn’t someone stand up to this woman? Am I totally wrong on this? What’s the right answer here?Should father or daughter or both be setting some boundaries now? Especially now that daughter is grown and mom can’t play the ‘legal card’ anymore? It seems they are empowering her to control both of their lives now and setting their future up to be this way. They base everything that they do and say on how this woman is ‘potentially going to react’ to something!
Regarding he and I potentially dating… about 4 years ago we started to date long-distance, and the ex-wife still managed to use the daughter to start all kinds of stuff and find out about us. We broke up, (for a few reasons,) but that is around the time when the daughter became suicidal. Is this type of stuff still going to continue to go on, even now that the daughter is out of the house and mom has no more legal control? When will it stop? I seems as though she still is implementing total psychological control on both of them; he argues that he’s using a strategy of appeasing mom so the daughter’s life will be less difficult – he’s being a ‘sacrifice’ for the daughter to lighten her load. Is this an appropriate strategy?
I hope you can help – I have been feeling very helpless, upset, and my brain has is spinning like crazy; it seems I could possibly be getting sucked in to becoming a SS victim myself (or some other illness) if I support him and respect these unhealthy dynamics… I love this man, he is amazing, and very committed to doing the ‘right thing’ for his daughter. I would love your insight and advice.
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Tasha33
Dear Dr Carver,
Thank you for your reply. You are quite right I am emotionally exhausted. It was like being with an emotional vampire that sucks all the life blood away before moving onto the its next victim without a second thought.
I have had counselling - at my ex’s insistence as he said it was my fault the relationship wasn’t going the way he wanted it to be - basically I argued back when he did or said something I disagreed with and he didn’t want that - he wanted a stepford wife and at times I felt like one. The counsellor was great, he immediately said ‘whose problem is this - it isn’t yours, it’s his’ and told me to either expect this misery for the rest of my life where it would be fine for a few weeks until he wanted to lash out emotionally at someone (me) or to make a complete break and get my life back on track. Sadly for my ex, the counsellor did not do brainwashing and my ex said he was very disappointed with the counsellor and thought him a failure.
The counsellor has said now that I am at the stage where I need to go out and find myself and do what I want to do.
You are so right about having to create a new identity as I have for so long had to like to the things that my ex did - it’s funny but thinking about it now, he never made any effort to like the same things as me. In fact he rubbished most of the things I liked.
Painful as it is, I am now starting to feel a sense of relief rather than missing being with him. Permanently having to walk on eggshells and to watch everything I said or did was frankly exhausting.
I have read your article on the Stockholm Syndrome - I knew my partner had a narcistic personality disorder but reading your article really brought it home to me and explained why I had been stuck in this relationship for so long. I felt so trapped that it felt someone had thrown away the key and I could never get away. Thank you for helping me find my freedom.
If there is anything else you think I should read, please do recommend. Thank you so much for your help. -
32
Dear Barbara: Extreme antisocial behavior and attitude doesn’t go away. Some of these folks can look socially appropriate if they need to, some actually charming, but the antisocial behavior is still there.
Like most normal people, you are trying to understand and make sense of his behavior from a “normal” perspective, as though - if he’s angry…you must have done something. Taking a “normal” view of antisocial behavior doesn’t work. The courts learned that thousands of years ago. He is angry and explosive because it gets his way and his way is the only thing that matters to him. He attacks you because you dared to question his behavior.
Your depression is probably related to emotional exhaustion. I’d seek help for depression quickly. Your depression is filling you with self-doubt, questions about your future and allowing him to place all guilt and responsibility for his behavior on you. His behavior and attitudes are not your fault.
You might want to read-up on antisocial and narcissistic personality in the mental health sites. I think you’ll recognize someone you know.
You are right to question the confusion in the relationship. Keep in mind, if a relationship is making you miserable - it probably isn’t good for you. Dr. Carver -
john31
Thank you for your article it was a great help to me.
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