Comments on: More Personal Replies from Psychologist About Relationships with Losers http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/ Looking at life through the prism of psychology, philosophy, mental health and more. Originally created by counsellor, psychotherapist and philosopher Dr Greg Mulhauser, this blog is now the work of an international team of contributors. Mon, 13 Feb 2012 12:49:10 +0000 hourly 1 By: Managing Editor http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/#comment-36405 Managing Editor Wed, 28 Mar 2007 11:37:50 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-36405 Hi folks, Thanks again to everyone who has posted their thoughts and feelings and questions about Dr Carver's article! We've now started a third discussion thread to accommodate even more feedback; please stop by there if you'd like to leave a question or comment for Dr Carver: <a href="http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2007/relationships/more-on-relationship-losers/">Psychologist's Description of "The Loser" Rings True</a> All the best, Greg Hi folks,

Thanks again to everyone who has posted their thoughts and feelings and questions about Dr Carver’s article! We’ve now started a third discussion thread to accommodate even more feedback; please stop by there if you’d like to leave a question or comment for Dr Carver:

Psychologist’s Description of “The Loser” Rings True

All the best,
Greg

]]> By: James http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/#comment-36382 James Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:28:01 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-36382 [Editor's Note: Comment moved to <a href="http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2007/relationships/more-on-relationship-losers/">new discussion thread</a> for feedback from Dr Carver.] [Editor's Note: Comment moved to new discussion thread for feedback from Dr Carver.]

]]> By: Joseph M Carver Ph.D. http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/#comment-36219 Joseph M Carver Ph.D. Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:47:58 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-36219 Dear Lauryn: Paranoid control is not a good sign. It tells us a lot of things about him. First, he feels you are his property of sorts which gives him the right to control what you do. Second, he feels you must answer to him at all times. He has no interest or consideration for your personal privacy or interests. Third, he feels entitled to demand these things from you, that same belief also makes him feel entitled to punish or harass you when you violate his rules. Lastly, paranoid control is only the tip of a very scary iceberg. He is working on separating you first from males in your life. He will next separate you from friends and eventually family. This behavior doesn't decrease with time - it increases. Be very careful here. Dr. Carver Dear Lauryn: Paranoid control is not a good sign. It tells us a lot of things about him. First, he feels you are his property of sorts which gives him the right to control what you do. Second, he feels you must answer to him at all times. He has no interest or consideration for your personal privacy or interests. Third, he feels entitled to demand these things from you, that same belief also makes him feel entitled to punish or harass you when you violate his rules. Lastly, paranoid control is only the tip of a very scary iceberg. He is working on separating you first from males in your life. He will next separate you from friends and eventually family. This behavior doesn’t decrease with time – it increases. Be very careful here. Dr. Carver

]]> By: Joseph M Carver Ph.D. http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/comment-page-9/#comment-36218 Joseph M Carver Ph.D. Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:34:28 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-36218 Dear Raine: You have detached but you still have a very active emotional memory of the abusive situation and the Loser. As you've noticed, any contact with the Loser not only brings back the emotional distress of the relationship, but returns you to a state of helplessness and anxiety. It's called "Emotional Memory". It's like being held hostage and abused in a specific location - then being forced to visit the site every other day to "relive" the memories. Those long emails are not discussions, they are part of his continued pattern of emotional and verbal abuse. Due to emotional memory, you still feel you must answer to him. It's like adults who still feel obligated do what their parents tell them to do - right or wrong. I've written about emotional memory. The article is at my website: www.drjoecarver.com under "Articles". To deal with emotional memory you must assume a business-only stance with your ex. Emails must be only child-related - no personal info about you and what you're doing. I'd also recommend reading my article on Love and Stockholm Syndrome available on this website. When we detach from an abusive partner there are several stages. Physical detachment is typically first, getting away. Social detachment is next, getting some social separation in the community. Emotional detachment follows, recovering from the emotional abuse and loss of self-esteem. Lastly, there is a type of Memory Detachment when we recognize that those emotional memories of the relationship are memories of how/who we were - not how we are now. Keep in mind that he will continue to intimidate you because you have the legal "upperhand" in custody. Stand your ground and refer all his questions to your attorney. He's probably more interested in pressuring you into a better child support deal than having custody of the child. It's a common antisocial personality tactic, giving you the impression that he will harass you less if you agree to what he wants. Don't give in to the pressure. Keep your attorney informed about his efforts and keep a scrapbook of his emails and contacts. If you don't establish that all contacts are going to be business-only, he'll continue to use the child as an admission ticket to abuse you in the future. Counseling would help you deal with the stress of this difficult situation. By the way, I think your therapist has made an accurate diagnosis of your ex. These are standard antisocial strategies and behaviors. Dr. Carver Dear Raine: You have detached but you still have a very active emotional memory of the abusive situation and the Loser. As you’ve noticed, any contact with the Loser not only brings back the emotional distress of the relationship, but returns you to a state of helplessness and anxiety. It’s called “Emotional Memory”. It’s like being held hostage and abused in a specific location – then being forced to visit the site every other day to “relive” the memories. Those long emails are not discussions, they are part of his continued pattern of emotional and verbal abuse. Due to emotional memory, you still feel you must answer to him. It’s like adults who still feel obligated do what their parents tell them to do – right or wrong.
I’ve written about emotional memory. The article is at my website: http://www.drjoecarver.com under “Articles”. To deal with emotional memory you must assume a business-only stance with your ex. Emails must be only child-related – no personal info about you and what you’re doing. I’d also recommend reading my article on Love and Stockholm Syndrome available on this website.
When we detach from an abusive partner there are several stages. Physical detachment is typically first, getting away. Social detachment is next, getting some social separation in the community. Emotional detachment follows, recovering from the emotional abuse and loss of self-esteem. Lastly, there is a type of Memory Detachment when we recognize that those emotional memories of the relationship are memories of how/who we were – not how we are now.
Keep in mind that he will continue to intimidate you because you have the legal “upperhand” in custody. Stand your ground and refer all his questions to your attorney. He’s probably more interested in pressuring you into a better child support deal than having custody of the child. It’s a common antisocial personality tactic, giving you the impression that he will harass you less if you agree to what he wants. Don’t give in to the pressure. Keep your attorney informed about his efforts and keep a scrapbook of his emails and contacts. If you don’t establish that all contacts are going to be business-only, he’ll continue to use the child as an admission ticket to abuse you in the future. Counseling would help you deal with the stress of this difficult situation. By the way, I think your therapist has made an accurate diagnosis of your ex. These are standard antisocial strategies and behaviors. Dr. Carver

]]> By: Joseph M Carver Ph.D. http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/comment-page-9/#comment-36217 Joseph M Carver Ph.D. Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:08:09 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-36217 Dear Mack, Losers are master manipulators and often use any contact as an opportunity to con, intimidate, upset, or "set up" their victim. Losers are also highly narcissistic/egotistical and consider all ex-partners as on a "back burner" status - possibly to be used and manipulated again. After a break-up, they try to maintain contact in an effort to measure your mood, your feelings toward them, and your availability for another round of abuse/manipulation. For this reason, I recommend the no-contact approach. A Loser doesn't call you out of the blue - there's always an agenda - you just might not be able to recognize it before it's too late. Chats about the "good times" are often used to soften your defenses for example. Again, I recommend no-contact. Dr. Carver Dear Mack, Losers are master manipulators and often use any contact as an opportunity to con, intimidate, upset, or “set up” their victim. Losers are also highly narcissistic/egotistical and consider all ex-partners as on a “back burner” status – possibly to be used and manipulated again. After a break-up, they try to maintain contact in an effort to measure your mood, your feelings toward them, and your availability for another round of abuse/manipulation. For this reason, I recommend the no-contact approach. A Loser doesn’t call you out of the blue – there’s always an agenda – you just might not be able to recognize it before it’s too late. Chats about the “good times” are often used to soften your defenses for example. Again, I recommend no-contact. Dr. Carver

]]> By: Joseph M Carver Ph.D. http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/comment-page-9/#comment-36216 Joseph M Carver Ph.D. Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:59:07 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-36216 Dear L.T.: You've touched on the subject of my next writing project. As I've discussed, the Loser is a type of personality disorder in psychiatric terms. While I've discussed Loser personalities in relationships, these folks become parents and sadly, being a parent doesn't improve their behavior as the responsibility often makes their behavior worse. Having a Loser as a parent, step-parent, or adult role model can be very damaging for the children in the family. Every normal parental activity is altered by their personality disorder (PD). While parents tend to concentrate on the welfare and happiness of their children, PD's focus on their happiness first. They are the "It's all about me" adults. They blame their children for their shortcomings as parents. They don't attend school functions but then blame the children for their disinterest. Children are blamed for their parent's financial situation, stress, lack of employment, behavior, etc. As we become an adult, we have tons of "unfinished business" from our childhood because those situations don't make sense. Often, it's only when we recognize that our parents were impaired and dysfunctional do we understand why our upbringing was so difficult. You can rarely get acceptance from a PD parent so their children grow up to feel they are unacceptable & worthless for example. These "toxic parents" often produce two types of children - those who behave just like them and those who recognize that something was wrong with their upbringing. If you recognize that your upbringing was unhealthy - you're probably the healthy one! A PD parent can produce multiple traumatic situations that continue to haunt the children in their adulthood, creating the PTSD features. Counseling often helps sort out these experiences. Dr. Carver Dear L.T.: You’ve touched on the subject of my next writing project. As I’ve discussed, the Loser is a type of personality disorder in psychiatric terms. While I’ve discussed Loser personalities in relationships, these folks become parents and sadly, being a parent doesn’t improve their behavior as the responsibility often makes their behavior worse. Having a Loser as a parent, step-parent, or adult role model can be very damaging for the children in the family. Every normal parental activity is altered by their personality disorder (PD). While parents tend to concentrate on the welfare and happiness of their children, PD’s focus on their happiness first. They are the “It’s all about me” adults. They blame their children for their shortcomings as parents. They don’t attend school functions but then blame the children for their disinterest. Children are blamed for their parent’s financial situation, stress, lack of employment, behavior, etc. As we become an adult, we have tons of “unfinished business” from our childhood because those situations don’t make sense. Often, it’s only when we recognize that our parents were impaired and dysfunctional do we understand why our upbringing was so difficult. You can rarely get acceptance from a PD parent so their children grow up to feel they are unacceptable & worthless for example.
These “toxic parents” often produce two types of children – those who behave just like them and those who recognize that something was wrong with their upbringing. If you recognize that your upbringing was unhealthy – you’re probably the healthy one! A PD parent can produce multiple traumatic situations that continue to haunt the children in their adulthood, creating the PTSD features. Counseling often helps sort out these experiences. Dr. Carver

]]> By: Lauryn http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/comment-page-9/#comment-35946 Lauryn Fri, 23 Mar 2007 03:16:25 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-35946 Very informative article Dr. Carver. For the past year I have been in a relationship with a man much like the "loser" you descrive. He displays many of these characteristics, however one in particular stands out. Number 10, Paranoid Control. My boyfriend will not let me converse with the oposite sex without asking why I feel the need to talk to them. He checks my cell phone for text messages from other men, my instant messaging chat logs, and calls me regularily to ask "if anything happend today" meaning if I spoke to another man, or anything of that sort. I'm just curious to see if you have any other articles or information you could give me relating to this relationship issue, it would be greatly appreciated. Take care, Lauryn Very informative article Dr. Carver.

For the past year I have been in a relationship with a man much like the “loser” you descrive. He displays many of these characteristics, however one in particular stands out. Number 10, Paranoid Control. My boyfriend will not let me converse with the oposite sex without asking why I feel the need to talk to them. He checks my cell phone for text messages from other men, my instant messaging chat logs, and calls me regularily to ask “if anything happend today” meaning if I spoke to another man, or anything of that sort.

I’m just curious to see if you have any other articles or information you could give me relating to this relationship issue, it would be greatly appreciated.

Take care,
Lauryn

]]> By: Raine http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/comment-page-9/#comment-35797 Raine Wed, 21 Mar 2007 23:26:25 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-35797 Dr Carver I was with my ex fiance for over 5 years and we have a 3 year old child together. My therapist has said that he is sure my ex has antisocial personality disorder due to animal abuse, violence and fitting the personality profile. I find all contact with him very hard although I know I have to do it. He is smug, arrogant and struts around like he is god's gift to women. He has no remorse for anything he did to me and is now acting for his lawyer and pretending how much he loves our child and would never hurt him!. I have made big steps with moving on and most days feel great, but the days I have contact (today) I feel really bad about myself and like i'm going crazy. All discussions take hours and hours by email, instead of a few minutes like normal people and it is SO frustrating. Today I went off at him for treating me so badly, I know he doesn't care. But god it hurts so badly sometimes. Is there anyway I can make this easier on myself. I thought I had detached emotionally, but it is clear that I have not and this is a worry to me. Thank you Dr Carver

I was with my ex fiance for over 5 years and we have a 3 year old child together. My therapist has said that he is sure my ex has antisocial personality disorder due to animal abuse, violence and fitting the personality profile.

I find all contact with him very hard although I know I have to do it. He is smug, arrogant and struts around like he is god’s gift to women. He has no remorse for anything he did to me and is now acting for his lawyer and pretending how much he loves our child and would never hurt him!.

I have made big steps with moving on and most days feel great, but the days I have contact (today) I feel really bad about myself and like i’m going crazy. All discussions take hours and hours by email, instead of a few minutes like normal people and it is SO frustrating. Today I went off at him for treating me so badly, I know he doesn’t care. But god it hurts so badly sometimes.

Is there anyway I can make this easier on myself. I thought I had detached emotionally, but it is clear that I have not and this is a worry to me.

Thank you

]]> By: Mack http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/comment-page-9/#comment-35707 Mack Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:51:03 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-35707 Dr. Carver, a friend sent me your article earlier today, and I've been stunned by how obvious and stark the signs are. I recently ended a relationship with someone who might be on the mild end of the spectrum, but who's on the spectrum nevertheless (most of the signs except the physical abuse/violence -- there was none of that: long-distance!). I ended it though because I don't want to have to deal with that sort of situation with the guy I'll eventually marry. Not gonna accept it later; no reason to accept it now. Could you talk a bit more about a <i>loser</i>'s no-contact pattern? For future reference, how can I tell the difference between a reasonable distance and independence and the sort of manipulative distance and withholding that a <i>loser</i> might set up? Dr. Carver, a friend sent me your article earlier today, and I’ve been stunned by how obvious and stark the signs are. I recently ended a relationship with someone who might be on the mild end of the spectrum, but who’s on the spectrum nevertheless (most of the signs except the physical abuse/violence — there was none of that: long-distance!). I ended it though because I don’t want to have to deal with that sort of situation with the guy I’ll eventually marry. Not gonna accept it later; no reason to accept it now.

Could you talk a bit more about a loser‘s no-contact pattern? For future reference, how can I tell the difference between a reasonable distance and independence and the sort of manipulative distance and withholding that a loser might set up?

]]> By: L.T. http://counsellingresource.com/features/2006/11/27/loser-more-replies/comment-page-9/#comment-35705 L.T. Wed, 21 Mar 2007 01:04:03 +0000 http://counsellingresource.com/features/archives/2006/relationships/loser-more-replies/#comment-35705 I was shocked and horrified when I realized that virtually every point in the "Are You Dating a Loser? (Part 1)" list were true about my parents if translated to their non-sexual/non-dating equivalents etc. This might explain the fact that I appear to have complex-PTSD, and still am too hung up about events that took place a decade or more ago (I'm in my early twenties, and still live with my parents due to the current housing situations in my city). This also explains why both I and my older brother went through many periods of depression as well as repeatedly seriously considering suicide. Bah. Thank you, Dr Carver, for the article. I have no doubt you've saved many people from being stuck in damaging 'romantic' relationships for too long. I've emailed the article to a few friends who I felt were in the danger-zone, and so far they've all gotten a minor chock and an eye-opener regarding their relationships, even though none of them currently are with any real "losers". I was shocked and horrified when I realized that virtually every point in the “Are You Dating a Loser? (Part 1)” list were true about my parents if translated to their non-sexual/non-dating equivalents etc. This might explain the fact that I appear to have complex-PTSD, and still am too hung up about events that took place a decade or more ago (I’m in my early twenties, and still live with my parents due to the current housing situations in my city). This also explains why both I and my older brother went through many periods of depression as well as repeatedly seriously considering suicide. Bah.
Thank you, Dr Carver, for the article. I have no doubt you’ve saved many people from being stuck in damaging ‘romantic’ relationships for too long. I’ve emailed the article to a few friends who I felt were in the danger-zone, and so far they’ve all gotten a minor chock and an eye-opener regarding their relationships, even though none of them currently are with any real “losers”.

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