Comments on “More Personal Replies from Psychologist About Relationships with Losers”
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93 Responses to “More Personal Replies from Psychologist About Relationships with Losers”
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Karen30
Dear Dr. Carver,
I started a new job almost a yr ago and have found I am working myself into a grave for my boss. I work between 10-12 hour days and she will email me on weekends and weeknights as late as 1am. I find myself constantly looking for her emails and requests. She has a history of an abusive past with her mother, who she said was emotionally and physically abusive. She has been in therapy for anger management issues as was her son. She has burned me out and I am afraid of her. She is prone to tantrums and threatens throwing things and uses bad language. She has a shallow personality, demanding and unappreciative. Here is the thing…I found as a married woman for 20 yrs and 3 great kids, that I became attracted to her in the last few months. I have never even kissed another woman but suddenly wanted a relationship with her that is difficult for me to understand. I realize I may be experiencing Stockholm syndrome and now have the opportunity to escape to another job but fear she will “kill” me if I leave. Thanks for your articles which will help me navigate out of this abuse relationship. If you have any additional suggestions, I would appreciate them. Is there ever a way this works out? Is there something I could do to protect myself from her hurt and anger while I need to give a months notice before I can leave my current job? She will make it a living hell, I am sure. Thanks. -
Kim29
Thank you Dr. Carver,
We pray that she will get tired of playing with him and that he will be able to get his life back on track.
Kim -
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Dear Kim: As parents, there are several strategies we might use in this situation. The goal is to select the strategy that provides the most safety to all involved. In my Stockholm Syndrome article (on this website) I use the theme of “Hold on Loosely”. You have taken that approach for the most part. Keeping a safe distance yet monitoring and supporting the victim of the Loser is important. As long as parents are aggressive, the Loser has an enemy to focus on, giving all blame for the distress in the relationship to the parents. By retreating to a safe yet supportive distance, you can’t be blamed for much and the natural irritating and controlling nature of her personality will gradually bring the relationship to an end. Victims, like your son, typically have several false starts before a final breakup. In the end, the selfishness of the Loser takes over and the Loser makes a decision it’s no longer worth her trouble. Sadly - depressed, demoralized, and emotionally exhausted sweethearts aren’t much fun to control and intimidate.
As I mention in the article, the family may need to have an escape plan available with components like a supportive job, funds, a place to stay, etc. Your son has plenty of time to rebuild himself and return to the original track once he has distanced himself from the Loser. Additionally, he may need professional counseling and even psychiatric support if he has been driven to depression.
Following my guidelines in the Stockholm Syndrome article allow you to maintain a connection without threatening the Loser, something that will often prompt very aggressive and damaging moves on her part.
Good luck during this difficult family time. Dr. Carver -
Kim27
Dr. Carver,
We have lost our 19 yr old son to a loser. Their relationship has been going on for nearly a 1-1/2 years now. It began as our son was recovering from a bout of depression. They had been dating for about 3 months, (in October of their Sr year in high school) when she began talking about marriage. My husband and I thought for the next few months that they had developed a co-dependent relationship. We talked to our son and on a single occasion, to the loser too about expanding their relationship to include other friends and interests. We used the analogy that 2 people could be knocked down simultaneously if they were tightly bound together. Where if the binds are looser, if one person falls down, the other person can help pick them up. But of course, things have only become worse as time passes. She ruined our family spring vacation by making our son feel guilty for trying to have fun without her. Yet, it was our entirely our fault because my DH and I rejected her by not inviting her on our family vacation.
It was about at that point that our patience and understanding went out the window. Our son had totally forgone all his studies, as his only interest was the loser and how to keep her happy. The lying started and escalated to protect her and their relationship. We had tried on several occasions to talk things out, but if asked to explain an untruth, she would cry and storm off siting that we hurt in some way or another.
The tension in our house remained high. Our son remained caught in the middle. We as parents, were trying to get him prepared for college and pressing him to study and to take care of his responsibilities. Normally a good student was pulling D’s. He did terrible on ACT & SAT’s. We saw a local psychologist, which didn’t do anything to help. While, she as the loser continued to get him to take care of her and pressing him to “stand up to his parents”.
Over last summer, our son had gotten so emotionally drained, he attempted to break off the relationship. The break up lasted about a month. He renewed contact with his best friend and others. But in the end, he missed her and felt guilty that he had hurt her too much. He did not tell us he was seeing her again. Nor did she tell her parents, as by now they see our son as an underachiever and don’t want him in a relationship with their over-achieving daughter. (By the way her parents have repeatedly reprimanded her for controlling our son and tried to explain to her the consequences of a controlling relationship.) But, alas, this girl controls her parents too.
When we learned the relationship was to continue my husband & I felt we needed to protect the rest of the family from the continued turmoil. We told our son, we loved him very much but if he needed to renew the relationship, he needed to move. His grandfather who lives close would rent him a room. We tried to show him how difficult live outside the house could be but offering him a stepping stone at the same time. He had financial obligations of $400/month – rent, car insurance, car loan, cell phone, to be paid to family not directly to providers. He started community college, and got a job at McDonalds. Then quit school to work more hours, because he needed money for gas to drive 60 miles each way to visit the loser who started college & was living in a dorm. My husband and I are both business owners and have offered him good pay to come work for us. Although he wont say it, we know she will now allow it. He is still working at McDonalds.
Over the past month, his contact has been dwindling, he’s not returning phone calls and stopped paying his bills. During Christmas, he had dinner with us several times but left quickly and was very distant to my husband, his 4 siblings and me.
I’ve read your article, which helps explain a lot. Taking all your advice into consideration, we are thinking about telling him that he must get his own car insurance and cell phone. We will sign the title of the car to him and forgive his loan. He needs to continue to settle rent with his grandfather. Tell him we don’t want money to come between us (even though we know that is not the reason). Let him know we have faith he will find what is right for him, will support his decisions and will be there if he needs us. Then just try to keep some contact as suggested by your article.
Our hearts are broken. Our whole family is worried about him. I cry just thinking about the situation, how it has hurt him and all of us. Any advice you have would be so gratefully appreciated. -
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Dear James: Thanks for the progress report. Hang in there!
As for your question, a major characteristic of all personality disorders is being self-centered. They view the environment only as it relates to them. They make decisions about wheather their life is better with or without children, marriage, etc. They do what they feel they must do to get whatever they want. Unlike a healthy parent, they are more concerned with their life than that of their children or those around them. With minimal emotional involvement in those around them, the PD can quickly detach and move to the next opportunity.
The emotional health in a family is not related to the number of adults or parents present. It’s related to the quality of the parents. Kids survive all types of family situations if they know they are loved and valued.
Keep on the path. Dr. Carver -
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Dear Amy, Your brother would probably fit the diagnosis of Antisocial Personality. This version of the Loser is intimidating, violent, and highly manipulative. His wife is intimidated to the point that she must act as his supporter - fearing the same rage vented toward your mother. Regarding his potential for violence, he is more likely to vandalize her property than physically assault her. However, he is highly dangerous to her financial status. Losers have a tremendous sense of entitlement - as though Mom’s money should be HIS money. His “business ventures” are only excuses to access her money as he has no history of being a successful businessman. When he doesn’t get his way he will react with a temper tantrum and threats. The threat is keep the grandchildren away is very common - it’s a form of holding the children hostage. Keep in mind that your brother will not hesitate to “con” your mother out of everything she has, using intimidation, guilt, or holding the kids hostage.
Your mother can take several steps. First, she must make her position known that she will provide no money (other than what is normally provided - gifts, etc.). Many folks with a conartist son/daughter make their funds difficult to get by investing in bonds, transferring house to a stable child, etc. Second, she must accept that she may not see the grandchildren for a while - until she’s needed for babysitting, etc. She must be willing to call his bluff/con. She can continue to send cards and keep her distance as I recommend in my stockholm syndrome article. Lastly, she must be willing to call the police to protect herself from his tantrums. Antisocials readily intimidate their family members but are fearful of police and the courts.
From your position, maintain close contact with your mother. Send her cards, flowers, gifts and other physical evidence that you are monitoring her situation from a distance. Antisocials hope to isolate their victims, as he has done with his wife. Suggestions that you are in frequent contact with Mom tell him that what he does is being watched carefully. Also, remember that your sister-in-law is an unwilling, yet active participate in your brother’s schemes. Remember that anything you say to her will go directly to your brother.
Good luck in this difficult situation. Hope this reply is helpful. Dr. Carver -
James24
01/09/06
I wanted to check in and post my progress in my life after my NPD left My children and I in May 22, 2006. Because of DR. Carver paper which started (kick started) my research in personality disorders I have come to a very painful and hard way. But things in my life are beginning to come around. We as a family are now dealing with “Our” new life. Of course there is highs and low but that comes with any normal life. I am learning to be a single parent, and again, with it’s highs and lows. But, it’s much better then life with a person who we had to for many years walk around on eggshells.. My children are learning be to part of a single parent household. Being that my oldest is now 15, I am learning to deal with his many issues. But feel with reading and research can be the father he now needs in his life. My 12 year old is still between a child and learning to become the a teenager himself. My only question is, how can any parent walk away from their children and not miss these “special” years in the growth and development of a child becoming an adult???. I would die to miss this myself. I know that what leys ahead of my children and I will not be easy, but that’s life. We need to take the good with the bad. I look forward to my “new” life with my children and I. And hope someday I too, will meet someone special to share it with….
Thanks Dr. James…. -
Amy23
My brother meets all the criteria of being a LOSER and then some. He is also violent to his pets and a chronic pot smoker. He has a wife and two children (one of which is from a prior failed relationship) with another baby on the way. He does not work, so his wife is currently supporting them. I have no relationship with him, but I am fearful for the safety of my widowed mother. The LOSER has always been very needy on her for emotional and financial support. Over the holidays, he became very verbally abusive with her when she refused to fund his latest business venture (accused her of living off the insurance of his dead father, etc.). When she asked him to leave her home, he packed up his family, told her she would never see his kids again, urinated on her home and drove across her yard several times. I live 2,000 kilometres away from my mother, so I cannot be of direct assistance and, as a result, I feel quite helpless to keep her safe. Any advice you have on how to determine if the LOSER is a physical threat to their loved ones would be most appreciated. I am also wondering how a parent can detach safely. My mother would certainly be prepared to pretend to be a neurotic bore, but explaining why she does not want to see the children or have them over for visits will be tricky. (My prayers are with my sister-in-law, but right now she is dangerous as well. When we offer her a safe house, she tells the LOSER what we said, and that just incites him further.)
Thank you for your helpful article, Dr. Carver. Any additional advice would be very much appreciated.
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Dear Jim: You do have a complicated situation. Her inability to stay detached is a large part of the problem. Losers will not leave when they continue to recieve a message/behavior that says a relationship is possible. Allowing the Loser in and out of your life keeps them in your life.
Therapy/counseling would be helpful for her. She is being pulled in many directions and may need help sorting out her position. The “geography cure” of moving 1,000 miles away is often considered by folks who feel they can’t make the decision on their own - or can’t stick by a decision - allowing geography to solve the problem for them.
Don’t forget that You also have the option to make a decision. Some folks in your spot put the situation on “probation”, try to be supportive and fix it, but with the idea that if the game is not over in six to 12 months, You decide to move on. Dr. Carver -
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Dear James: I’m a guest psychologist on this website and can’t reply to your request to post other material. Dr. Greg Mulhauser, owner of the website, is currently on paternity leave and won’t return for a few months. I’m sure he’ll address your question when he returns in March 2007. Dr. Carver
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