174 Responses (2 Discussion Threads) to “The Mystery of Loving an Abuser”

1. 

   Susan

   161

   30th October 2008

   Dear Dr Carver,

   I am in need of URGENT ADVICE if you can help me at all.

   We are in court for the Final Custody Hearing on Monday 3rd Novermber, and I just do not know what to advice my daughter to do to ensure her and her daughters safety.

   Details of the case are as follows:-

   My daughter and her two daughters, the eldest from a previous relationship. came to live with us about two years ago, after they were made homeless for the second time, due to her husbands behavior. (drugs, drink, affairs, crime, manipulation, intimidation, control, and violence etc.)

   During the first period of being homeless, they lived in an hostel until the council rehoused them. During this 18 month seperation, her husband tried everything possible to get her to return, including attempting suicide, threats, kidnap and trying to make her jealous with new women. He showed no interest in the children alone, only as a useful tool to get to their mother. He also has three children from a previous relationship, who saw my daughter regularly.

   Eventually he said sorry, and he appeared to be genuinely trying to change his ways. He certainly appeared to have cut down on his drinking and he agreed to go with my daughter to Relate. The councellor at Relate, felt that she could not help him and advised that he saw a psychiatrist, which he did.

   Because he genuinely seemed to be sincere, my daughter decided to try again. He only saw the psychiatrist four times, but he did seem much better. He started a job, worked all hours, and wasn’t living in the pub. He didn’t see much of any of the children, as he was constantly working (illegally granted), but for the short time each day he saw them he was very attentive.

   He was now earning quite a lot of money, but my daughter and the children never saw any of it. He ended up admitting he had run up a lot of debts while they were seperated. They lived on my daughters part time wages, while he was repaying his debts. But then my daughters money started disappearing, he completely cleared out her bank account, she could no longer even pay the rent. She ended up in debt herself, and close to eviction.

   She decided enough was enough, and asked him to leave. He then admitted that he was on drugs, spending up to £1000 a week. She said she would try and help. He attended the local drug centre once only.
   From then on things went from bad to worse. his behaviour became more bizarre, he was more intimidating and suicidal.(even to the point were the children found suicide messages from him written inside the birthday card they had bought for him). My daughter and I contacted Mental Health Services numerous times, but because he was on drugs they said they couldn’t help.

   Eventually the Police helped ensure he left the house, but following numerous break- ins and intimidation, my daughter and the children were declared homeless and came to live with us, while they awaited rehousing. The children were happier and more settled than they had been for a long time, and confided in me a lot. They started new schools and were looking forward to having a new house together.

   The children would see him occasionally, when they were at his ex’s house with their half sister/brothers, or when visiting his sisters house.

   He still tried to get my daughter back as he had in the past and within a month, he had moved in with a new woman (thinking that would make her jealous). But she had had enough.

   Contact with the children increased, just an odd hour here and there to start, when he could be bothered. It gradually increased to a Friday or Saturday, but because he thought my daughter might be going out, he would normally phone and say the children wanted to come home.

   My daughter started to get her life back together, and went out for the first time in years, went to college and started a new job. (She cares for severely mentally and physically disabled adults).

   Six months after she left she started dating a new man. He found out, and warned her to keep him away from him or he would kill him.

   The following week my granddaughter told us that her father had bowel cancer, but he wouldn’t go to the hospital. she was worried he would die. My daughter challenged him about it, and he denied to my daughter that he had said it and that his daughter had just misunderstood (he actually suffered from piles). We explained to my granddaughter but she wasn’t sure what to believe, and was worried.

   Both the children went to spend the following weekend with him for the first time.

   My granddaughter never came back.

   That was 18 months ago. She is now a totally different child.

   To start with she would run away, if we went anywhere near her, as if she was terrified of us, and we didn’t see her at all for four months. I can’t even begin to tell you some of the things she as done and said to her mother and me.

   My daughter is absolutely devastated, she is convinced her daughter now hates her. They had always had an incredibly close relationship, before.

   There was no court involvement at this point.
   We contacted Child protection and so did the school.
   We spoke to a Social Worker, and showed her some of the evidence we had. She said it definately needed investigating and it was passed to her manager.

   The manager saw my granddaughter at the office for 10 minutes (she denies it was only 10 minutes, but we know for a fact it was). She then phoned and said “I’ve spoken to ….. and she wants to live with her father, and I believe her” We tried desperately to explain, but she wasn’t interested. Obnoxious is the only word I can think of. We asked her if she had contacted the school and the mentor my granddaughter had seen at her previous school (she had only been at her new school about 3/4 months,) and it was obvious she hadn’t even read the notes. Following a long exchange she said “we are not getting involved in your custody battle”, and that was final. We said we would put in a complaint, and she just couldn’t care less.
   We then started court proceedings.

   On to Solicitors and Court. 18 months on and they have not even looked at any evidence. Cafcass become involved only 3 months ago. Her report, in fairness, was good. At the last court appearence, following sacking of solicitor, the Judge refused to look at evidence or order tests and reports (which had been ordered 12 months ago). The next hearing is the final hearing

   Since court proceedings were insitaged my daughters husband’s behavior is even worse, as he has warned my daughter, in front of both of her children, that he will kill her.

   So the position at the moment is she sees his children, but only occassionaly her own daughter, He has no contact with his other older children (They all now refuse to speak to him)

   The question I’d like to ask is, if we do win the case, bearing in mind my granddaughter is actually living with her father, will he return her safely or could it put both my daughter and granddaughter at serious risk. Her ex has been violent in the past (mostly to men and strangers) and his response when I had to tell him his own brother had been murdered was “SO, what are you telling me for”.

   Also Dr Carver, if we do manage to see my granddaughter before the case should we say something to her or not.

   Thank you so much for this sight because quite honestly we could not make any sense of what was going on.

   Thank you again

   Susan
2. 

   Susan

   162

   2nd November 2008

   Dear Dr Carver,

   Please accept my sincere apoliogies for my previous post, it was wrong of me to request your help at such short notice. It’s just that I have only recently found your site, and it is so enlightening, but it also made me worry even more about my family.

   It looks like the case will have to be adjorned anyway, owing to yet another error by his solicitor.

   Thank you again for this site. My eyes have been opened, not just to my daughters relationship, but my previous one also.
3. 

   Susan

   163

   7th November 2008

   Just a quick update on the situation. At court we requested a “no order” and were granted it. They didn’t bother looking at the case or the evidence (this is after 17 months).

   So, hoorah, no more court involvement, because they certainly have not helped the situation.

   But now we have to sort it ourselves, or I should say myself, because my daughter as “switched off”. The grief and hurt has just overwhelmed her, and she will not discuss anything to do with it- may I ask is this PTSD.

   Any suggestions as to how I can help both my daughter and my granddaughters would be very much appreciated.

   Thank you in advance for any advice.
4. 

   Susan

   164

   27th November 2008

   ******* SHE’S BACK ***** SHE’S BACK *****

   Dr Carver,

   My daughter and I, decided the best thing to do was behave as though we didn’t care whether my granddaughter came back or not.

   We figured if he could no longer use her to punish my daughter – my granddaughter would outlive her usefulness – and he’d let her come home.

   Well, it worked, it worked, she really is back. Found out today.

   Apparently yesterday evening she came for an access visit and told Mom, she didn’t want to go back.

   Apparently she is not allowed any friends, has been smoking since she was eleven and according to her father she is a coke-head (his words).

   Her father told her “You know your Mom doesn’t love you, she never loved you, there’s only me that loves you. You’re Mom’s telling everyone that I’m on drugs, but it’s your Mom who’s on drugs” – and so it went on.

   But she was adamant she was not going back.

   Is this brilliant or what ???????
5. 

   Joseph M Carver Ph.D.

   165

   28th November 2008

   Hi Susan,

   You’ve used the technique I call “Hold On Loosely” in my Stockholm Syndrome article. Losers and Personality Disorders are totally selfish and self-justifying – but they’re almost never good parents. By taking yourself out of the picture, he had no “enemy” to justify his misbehavior – no one to torment – only the obligation for childcare. When Losers/Abusers fight for child custody – it’s always to punish or control the mother – not in the best interest of the child and not out of loving concern.

   While they may initially win a victory and obtain custody – that’s not the victory they want. They were trying to punish those around them, using the child, and manipulate the situation. They actually have little interest in being a full-time parent.

   I’m glad your strategy went well. It’s tough to carry out but it does work. The child may need counseling to repair the emotional damage of the experience. What a nice holiday present. Dr. Carver
6. 

   Susan

   166

   28th November 2008

   Thanks Dr Carver,

   It was your articles, and others that made us take the gamble.

   But now, I don’t know if I’m being paranoid, but I am really suspicious about what is really going on her.

   I feel that’s it’s very strange that three weeks ago, my grandaughter did not waver in her desire to live with her father, knowing that if he won custody she would not be able to come back and would be even more under his control, and had cut off her escape route.

   Now she has nothing decent to say about her father, has blocked his number and says she never wants to see him again.

   But which version is true?

   If she can go against him now, why not three weeks ago ?

   If he wanted rid of her, why did he try to get her to go back, by continuing to tell her that her Mom never loved her.

   I can’t help but believe something is going on in the background that
   we are not privvy to.

   I still think, he’s behind it and am fearful what he will do, because he never, ever loses. I feel my daughter and granddaughter will pay for this.

   Or he is still using my granddaughter to get to her Mom.

   I would appreciate your opinion on this.

   Quite honestly my head hurts trying to make any sense of it

   Thank you so much for this site, I only wish I’d found it years ago. It’s so educational.
7. 

   Wendy

   167

   1st December 2008

   Hi, Susan,

   Rest assured, EVERYONE’s head hurts who try to make sense of the actions of people with this behavior pattern.

   Your granddaughter is being pushed to and fro – not by you and your daughter but by her natural desire for change, and by the actions of her father. Teenagers form very strong allegiances as a survival strategy, and she has been in a very stressful situation. She has likely fought a losing battle to stay on good terms with her father – initially being rewarded for coming to stay with him, and gradually losing his favour again – a process she had no control over. It’s quite natural that when she made the switch back to her mother, she made it suddenly and now can’t stand the thought of her dad.

   With loving, consistent attention from you and your daughter she will calm down. I admire you and your daughter for following the strategy of ceasing to reward the father for his actions. It must have been very scary, but at least it didn’t take long to work. But the main thing is that your granddaughter is back home.

   Try to ignore the antics of her father. Perhaps you might even bring humor into it: “there he goes again!”.

   Best wishes,
   ~Wendy
8. 

   Joseph Carver, Ph.D.

   168

   1st December 2008

   Hi Susan,

   May I first say that Wendy is 100% in her response. Exactly as she describes, the granddaughter MUST invest in the father and his behavior to gain his favor. In survival mode, she knows that he has the potential to totally reject and punish her, unlike mother and grandmother. Being with her father was an all-or-nothing situation and once she realized the consequences of her move, she had no choice but to switch to the “nothing” strategy to get home.

   I’d allow her to ventilate but don’t ask too much about her custody with Dad. Over time, as she calms down, she will begin to compare the two home environments. More and more information about her feelings, rationale, and experience will slowly surface. Also keep in mind that she may not be able to articulate her reasons for that bad decision. Sons and daughters are often placed as a rope in a tug of war between battling parents. As my assistant Wendy mentions, it’s now time to rebuild and recover. On the plus side, Mom and Grandmother have the love and understanding to make that possible.

   Wendy is also on-target when she recommends the use of humor. I’d read my Emotional Memory article where you’ll find that humor is very powerful in short-circuiting memories of traumatic events. By referring to father’s antics with “There he goes again” you are relieving the granddaughter of any obligation to explain his behavior, make sense of it, or even make excuses. If you have pets, when they poop on the floor you just laugh and think…”Hey, he’s a dog.” In both situations, recognize the behavior, laugh about it, don’t take it personally, and move on. Happy Holidays
   Dr. Carver

   PS: Wendy, when you’re ready for your doctoral internship in clinical psychology, let me know.
9. 

   Susan

   169

   2nd December 2008

   Hi Wendy and Dr. Carver,

   Thank you for your comments. But if I’m truthful, Yes, it was scary, but my daughter had totally given in anyway. She knew there was no way she would ever win against him. He is far too good. (at acting that is).

   The list of things my daughter has endured in the last 13 years is enough to send anyone to a breakdown, her husband being just a part of it.

   She is now not the same person. Don’t get me wrong, she looks the same, sounds the same, but is not the same. (not that I would expect her to be. Your life cannot be turned upside down, again and again and expect to come out of it unscathed).

   She just doesn’t care anymore, it’s as though she has taken on a some of his traits and behaviors.

   This sounds horrible I know, but she has become selfish, putting herself before everyone, even the children – so out of character.

   If you had heard some of the things her daughter has said to her, and witnessed what she has done you might understand. It’s as though she is feeling scorned by the children. She feels that all the love she had for them meant nothing to them.

   And for all the awful, selfish, deliberately hurtful things their father did, they loved him and appeared to hate her. It’s as though they liked being mistreated, because when their Mom removed them from the hurt and pain, they dumped their Mom and went back to him.

   Does that make any sense to you?

   And now she will let both the children do exactly what they like, there are no boundaries, because she is terrified they will leave her again.

   I tell her that they didn’t go (I say they, because this is the second time she has gone through this) because she set boundaries, and didn’t love her. The went because they were manipulated, emotionally blackmailed and frightened. But she can’t or won’t see it.

   I just do not know how to help any of them.

   My daughter insists, she’s fine, even though everyone who knows and loves her knows otherwise.

   The children are exactly the same as their mom, and insist they are fine as well.

   Is this normal under the circumstances, and will it just improve with time?
10. 

    Ferit

    170

    9th February 2009

    Dr Carver,
    Im 33 and I am living in a foreign country(I lost my parents in a traffic accident 14years ago). I work as an expert. I met a lady(27 lost her father 14years ago) 2,5months ago.Our conversation made us to think more seriously about our future.The only problem was her relation at that time(the guy is french and 44).The relation was 7months old.She wasnt happy but wasnt sad either.But she said she would like to go on with me.Then I asked her to move all staff to me and leave him.3days before new year eve. she did.

    After her movement,her man sent too many sms,email,phone calls to invite her back.She couldnt avoid herself to answer them.And in the NY evening,she asked me to take back to him.I did.

    I didnt reply any of her msgs after she left.She started the contact to me next day after leaving me.She continued 2-3days but I ignoreed her.But in one msg she said she applied to a psychologist.Then I started to help her as much as I could.I found this web page based on her comments about her man.And I understood my fault by putting pressure on her.

    After psychologist visit,she understood that she wanted to go on with me.(psyc found some syptom with her but i donno exactly)Then we started our relation again.This time I didnt put any pressure on her not to repeat my fault.But she couldnt tell the truth to her man that she was with me and we had a sexual life this time.She always kept this as a secret(she assumes her man as a father of her).After second seperation from her man,the man continued to invite her back.After 2 weeks she left me again.I stopped all my contact to her not to effect her life more.

    Before meeting me,the man didnt want to talk about future with her.The man offered group sex,critise her dressing and culture etc.(The lady ignores the realtionship of that man with prostitutes.)But after me,he started to talk about having baby.Then the lady left the flat second time and he offered marriage and everythnig to her.No group sex,no critisim about culture and dressing.

    The lady never wants to take the responsibility of her action.She always tries to put the responsibility on others like “I wish one of his friend tells I left him and he shouldnt distrub me more.”.She said she got the responsibility of life in the age of 14 and she was very storng person before him.

    When i met her,her man was abroad for 5weeks.they moved to a new flat with him and as soon as they moved,he left the country.So she set up the life in that flat by herself during 5weeks.I met her in the 3rd week.I guess she feels that this flat belongs to her.

    During our start-up period,she tried to stop my relation 3-4 times.I was waiting on standby and she started the relation back again with me.

    She cant talk to me on the phone near him.She scares although he knows that I am just a normal friend of him.

    Now I really wonder what to do.Why is she contacting with me after she left me?Why does she want to go back to that man?Is it a game?
    BR.Ferit
    • 

      Ferit

      170.1

      9th February 2009

      one more comment:

      while she was leaving me in the second time, i offered her to apply psychologist again. she refused strongly by stating that she was okay and not sick.

      after second seperation, she continued to contact to me but i ignored her.

      in one of her email, again she mentioned about psychologist application.

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