Comments on “Are You Dating a Loser?”
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82 Responses to “Are You Dating a Loser?”
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Steve30
Thank you for the excellent articles on Stockholm Syndrome and Loser partners. In my situation, my wife has started displaying Loser behaviors most suddenly when she started drinking heavily after the birth of our son, two and half years ago. She is very controlling and uses isolation and emotional distance to punish me for the slightest perceived offenses –sometimes for no reason at all. Her behavior has steadily worsened, despite my identification of this problem a few months after it started.
We tried couples counseling, and the counselor recommended my wife seek independent treatment for post-partum depression (PPD). But she would not go. You mentioned earlier in the blog that loser behaviors can result from depression. If she works through the lingering PPD issues with a professional, is it likely that the loser behaviors may go away?
As it is now, I want to leave the relationship. Yet, I still believe that my son should have access to his mother. Is there anyway for me to protect him from the emotional abuse, so that he can still have a relationship with his mother? It feels awkward for me to paint her out to be a total monster since she seems to be able to control her behavior around others, including our son –it only happens when I am alone with her.
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29
Dear Jane,
The Loser’s rebound relationship is typical. Keep in mind that the warm-up period is often directly related to the self-esteem and sophistication level of the victim. If the victim is vunerable, depressed, or has low self-esteem - the warm-up is very fast - the Loser arriving as the answer to their prayers. If you have intact self-esteem, the warm-up must be slower and more deliberate.
These rebound relationships are often for the previous victim’s benefit as well. As the ex-victim, if you’ve always wanted a convertible - don’t be surprised if he buys (actually short-term leases) her a convertible. As I mention in my article, Losers will continue to think of each past victim as on the “back burner” - perhaps only needing a little jealousy to rekindle the return of the abusive/controlling relationship.
Losers are personality disorders in psychiatric terms. They do not “recover” in the sense that we recover from depression or the flu. Once controlling the new, or next victim, she will receive the same treatment you received. You’ll see her in a few months, walking with a tense smile, eyes forward, and holding his arm (at his demand). We would only hope that she recognizes her situation and has the courage to detach. Otherwise, he’ll intimidate her into needless surgeries (he may be a surgery fetish), then reject her for being “scared” - then more on. Keep in mind, while it may have gotten ugly in the end, which is common, it’s not nearly as ugly as living several years in an abusive relationship. As a patient recently told me, in a similar situation, “It’s better to have loved and lost than to live with the Psycho the rest of your life!”
Congrats on your new life. Thanks for the nice comments on my article. Dr. Carver -
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Hi Dr. Carver,
Thank you for your brilliant article outlining the characteristics of the Loser. I wish I had seen it sooner. I now realize I was involved with a Loser for 8.5 months. Although I ended the relationship, I still beat myself up somewhat for being so blind and for excusing the verbal/emotional abuse for too long. Because I know I’m smarter than that! But I also truly believe that my confidence and self-esteem were too strong for him to control – and that ultimately helped bring the relationship to an end.True to form, the first few months were pure heaven. I thought I finally met my Mr. Right. It was not a whirlwind “rapid warm up” romance. Things progressed slowly and steadily to become serious. After about 3 months, his behavior changed. He would have angry outbursts over the most trivial things. He also started picking on minute flaws in my appearance or personality. “If you just fix a few small things, you’ll be perfect,” he would say. My standard response was “NO one is perfect, but if you’re not happy with me the way I am, there’s the door.” And I meant it. One of these “small things” was his request for me to get liposuction – when I’m a size 2 and weigh only 113 lbs! I told him he was out of his mind (and shallow, superficial, and hurtful). I know I should have ended it then but he apologized (of course) and I rationalized that the good outweighed the bad and the relationship continued and I was happy to be with him. I deflected (or so I thought) his attempts to devalue and control me – not knowing that even as strong as I thought I was, he was slowly chipping away at my self-esteem. I only know that now as my old self has returned.
After my strong reaction to his 3rd request re: cosmetic surgery, I believe he finally realized he wasn’t going to win. He suddenly grew emotionally distant. But the trivial verbal and emotional abuse and angry outbursts seemed to escalate. He started snapping at almost every single thing I said or did, apologizing afterwards. Finally, I had enough. It became too exhausting and draining. Things got ugly at the end, but as hard as it was, I am very, VERY grateful to be completely free of him.
Sorry for rambling on, but here’s the epilogues to my soap opera and my questions to you…. I learned that he met a new woman shortly after our breakup (no, he did not meet her before we broke up). He asked her to move in with him just 3 days after they met. And he asked her to marry him a week after that. I was shocked and thought (laughing), “who IS this man??! He didn’t even kiss me on our first date!” ;)
So, is it even remotely possible for this insane rebound “rapid warm up” relationship to work out?? Even though his “fiancee” must be crazy too, can an abuser size up and close on a potential new victim that quickly? Is it possible for an abuser to NOT abuse his next partner? Are abusers capable of experiencing a level of normal happiness or satisfaction if/when they find a partner they CAN control? I know it sounds terribly mean, but even though I don’t want him, I also don’t really want him to live happily ever after either! :)
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27
Dear Annette: From your description of the situation, those who care for your best friend are probably going deaf from all the warning alarms going off. You are correct that multiple “loser” characteristics are present in this individual. You’ll notice that he has justifications for every obvious high-risk indicator in this relationship. Losers don’t join you for a relationship - they pull you into their custom-made, selfish relationship - gain control over you - then gradually separate you from your old life, old friends, and old support system. You’ll notice how offended he becomes when you question his behavior. He’s willing to talk to you, but only to gain some information on how to confront your influence and concern. He’s not interested in the dynamics at all, only how you might provide support to her and question his behavior.
You are right to be concerned if not alarmed. I’ve outlined some recommendations for family and friends of victims of Losers in another article on this website - Love and Stockholm Syndrome. In supporting your best friend, remind her that this relationship has many risk factors, encouraging her to keep an open mind and proceed with caution. If we totally reject the relationship, that will provide a reason for the Loser to target you as someone who is trying to break them up - when all he wants to do is have another baby and get married and be happy forever (after two months and in the middle of a divorce)! The Loser will then work hard to separate your friend from you and others who dare question his control of the relationship.
As I mention in the Stockholm Syndrome article, “Hold on Loosely” and hang in there. She will need your help. Dr. Carver -
Annette26
Dear Dr.Carver,
In one last attempt to find answers to my best friends new relationship, I stumbled across your article and found parts of it similar to her relationship. You are absolutely right that there is a handful of us (friends and family) that are concerned about her and her choices to continue on with this relationship. I want to make sure I’m not jumping the gun and that I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt without judgement. But the two of them together just keep making bad choices. Is he a true loser? I’m hoping you can help me figure it out.
This guy is 10 years older than my 23 year old best friend. He’s finishing up a divorce and what looks like a difficult custody battle of his 3 1/2 year old son. The Loser is still living in the same house with his soon to be ex and sharing the same bed, while sleeping with my best friend and calling her his girlfriend. He’s justified it by saying he’s not willing to give up the morning ritual he has with his son and that they are both to stubborn to sleep on the couch. He’s also said things like, “If I had it my way, you’d be pregnant already.” They seem to have had every discusssion under the sun about moving in together, getting married, having children, etc. and they’ve only been dating for 2 months. He doesn’t seem to want to “burden” her with any feelings he’s having about his failed marriage and has yet to take any responsibility for his part in it except to say, “we just fell out of love, we weren’t friends first and their wasn’t a strong enough foundation to build a marriage on.”
He’s questioned her about her future relationship with my son (her god son) and has offered to talk to me as a means of making me understand their relationship?
I don’t want to draw the line in the sand, and I know she needs to make her own decisions, I just need some validation that (based on the info) I should be concerned and that he fits the profile of “Loser”. My best friend and I are more like sisters and I really do believe he is threatened by our relationship and can’t fully understand the dynamic of our friendship.
PLEASE HELP!
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Dear Cindy, You have reminded us of the textbook behavior & characteristic of a personality disorder, abuser, and “loser”. No matter how they behave - it’s never their fault. They accept no responsibility for their behavior or the way they treat others. As you point out, the victim becomes caught in a web of lies, manipulations, and mental abuse. Instead of living the the real world, the victim lives in the “reality” of the abuser and manipulator. It will take months to sort it all out - what is reality and what is just how you’ve lived with the “loser”. This sorting out process will give you and your children a new life. Good luck Cindy in your return to the real world and a new life for you and your children. Dr. Carver
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Cindy24
I am separated from a ‘loser’. It came down to me choosing my mental well-being and my children over him. He now lives with his parents, takes zero accountability for his alcohol, drugs, lying, cheating, verbal outbursts and innapropriate behaviors. He is diagnosed as bi-polar and is on a series of medications. It helps, but the core behaviors and lact thereof are still there. He says I failed him and used him. It is so painful to let go, when your heart is so tangled in his web of deciet. I am recovering and relieved I am back in reality. He never cared about me. He couldn’t. He’s stuck.
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23
Dear Peter,
You have already done a lot for this individual. You have been a supporter, a voice of reason in his life, and a person who has been concerned about his welfare. Sadly, he will only be helped when HE becomes concerned for his welfare and health.
Relationships with these folks can exhaust you emotionally. Sadly, the individuals I describe are almost totally self-concerned and emotionally burn out one friend, moving to the next friend to burn them out as well. As you describe, this is his lifestyle - not a temporary situation.
Keep in mind that you may be depressed as a result of the stress of this relationship. All depression has guilt, with the brain constanting reviewing and asking “could I have done more?” I would recommend reading my article on Stockholm Syndrome which addresses the difficulties associated with detaching from these individuals, even when we know they are dangerous to us. Dr. Carver -
Peter22
Dr. Carver,
Thank your for these articles, as they have clarified what was a genuine loser relationship that is recently over. But I still have such deep feelings for his sad mental state. On top of being HIV positive, jobless, 34, living at his grandmother’s, a drunk mother who is there most of the time, drug use, random and frequent unsafe sex encounters, internet “addiction”, he is taking celexa and does try therapy, but is also deeply depressed, has betrayed his closest friend (though his friend would dump him completely if he knew for a fact this was true) and I still harbor feelings that somehow he can be helped by me.
I have been in therapy and I KNOW he’s basically unsafe to be around, yet my heart is so torn. Still. As a matter of fact, I’m the only person who thinks it’s a good idea to see him again, to spend time with him, and hope he will do the work to change himself for the better. In the mean time he’s trying to change his drunk mom, which I know is pointless, as were my efforts to effect any change in him.
The worst part is my sadness. He’s not just depressed, I guess and after reading a response, I think he might be borderline, narcissistic, and antisocial, as you say.
I guess the most difficult part is realizing there is nothing I can do but save myself. But is there anything I can do for him?
Thank you.
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21
Jessica has brought up an important issue. Psychiatric conditions like depression, anxiety, phobias, bipolar disorder, and even schizophrenia don’t create the Loser and Abuser personality. It actually starts forming before those psychiatric disorders arrive. The Loser is a personality disorder - a long-term maladaptive way of acting and thinking. However, as Jessica mentions, a psychiatric disorder will amplify and exaggerate all Loser behaviors. Imagine having a painful recovering from surgery - then you get the flu. Two disorders in combination quickly make the situation intolerable and overwhelming. Dr. Carver
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